[meteorite-list] New Topics title- Meteorites and Archaeology... was novels

[E.P. Grondine]

Hi Dirk, Doug - 

RE: Navaho and their role in the SW sequence: 

My book "Man and Impact in the Americas" covers
"Mushkogean" traditions of their migrations, and
events around Sunset Volcano. It's available for
$34.95 from amazon.com, or send $35 to P.O. Box 158,
Kempton, IL 60946 and I'll sign it for you and pick up
the postage.

good hunting,
Ed

--- MexicoDoug <MexicoDoug at aim.com> wrote:

> Hola Sterling, Got the handoff, shall I make it to
> all the 9 yards' 
> line....Hardly a hijacking since a detailed analysis
> of War & Peace was 
> kindly left to the scholars:-)
> 
> Wow, Sterling, Nice catch, I had never read far
> enough into the Tikal 
> tektites to find that they had been shown distinct
> from the K/T boundary 
> material, thanks for the correction.  The fact that
> the were transported 
> there with source unknown was enough to turn me off
> about pursuing it - and 
> it is too easy for the sloppy reader to assume a
> Chicxulub relationship due 
> to the proximity.  I now wonder if the tektites were
> truly paired, or can be 
> paired, to any Indochinites.  But the concept of
> import from Asia or Oceania 
> is TOTALLY COOL, especially if you've every made the
> journey to Tikal as I 
> did (before knowing about the tektites' find
> unfortunately), you'll 
> definitely agree that it is not a likely place for
> things to appear. 
> Something like a Mayan version of "Tarzan and the
> Lost City" comes to mind.
> 
> Saludos Dirk and thanks for the kind comments
> below... what you mention of 
> the Navajo's possible role in the disappearance of
> the Casas Grandes culture 
> could make perfect sense in a parallel way.  Just a
> minor clarification, and 
> that is that it is not certain that the Casas
> Grandes culture which had the 
> big iron meteorite excavated from the Paquime temple
> were any more Puebloan 
> than the were Aztec - though both elements have been
> argued.  There are 
> currently no exclusive answers to that question of
> origin, which makes it 
> nicely mysterious...The confusion here arises in
> that the Arizona locality 
> "Casa Grande" is a different locality from the
> Northern Mexico locality of 
> "Casas Grandes".  The are sufficiently
> geographically close that you still 
> could be right, though in the Mexican Casas Grandes
> case is more probably 
> not a pure Puebloan race than something different
> and independent.  And 
> their building styles were similar, only there were
> just lots more houses in 
> Paquime...! (hence Casas Grandes vs. the singular ??
> :-))  Thanks for the 
> links.
> 
> Best wishes, Doug
> 
> Dirk kindly wrote:
> Dear Doug,  You mentioned the Navajo.  The Dene
> (Navajo) didn`t
> arrive New Mexico and the American Southwest until
> around 1500AD; and it has been proposed that the
> demise of the Puebloan (Casas Grande) culture MAY
> have
> been contributed to by their arrival.
> 
> http://www.lapahie.com/Timeline_to_1491.cfm
> 
>   Casas Grande pre-dates their arrival.  You may do
> a
> Web search for more information beyond this link:
> 
> http://whc.unesco.org/pg.cfm?cid=31&id_site=560
> 
>   Best, Dirk...Tokyo
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sterling wrote:
> 
> 
> > Hi, Doug,
> >
> >    Hijacking your nice thread again...
> >
> >    The tektites in Tikal didn't "find their way"
> there
> > by any other means than falling out of the sky.
> They
> > have been found in the temples, anciently
> collected,
> > and one much more degraded one has been found
> > in the forests surrounding.
> >
> >    Alan Hildebrandt dated them and they fall right
> > into the upper end of the dating spread for
> Australite/
> > Indochinite tektites, which, surprise! they look
> just
> > exactly like. Grab your globe and give it a twirl.
> > Tikal's "antipodal point" is on the western edge
> of
> > the Australo-Asian strewn field. Likewise, an
> Ivorite
> > was recovered from off shore of the Australian
> coast.
> > equally antipodal to Ivory Coast, unless you think
> > "the currents" carried it there -:) laughing...
> >
> >     Casa Grande was found in 1867: "A mass of
> 3407lb
> > was found in an ancient tomb, E.G. Tarayre (1867).
> > L. Fletcher (1890) implies that this mass was
> presented
> > to the Smithsonian Institution in 1876. First
> Description,
> > W. Tassin (1902). Analysis, 7.74 %Ni, G.P. Merrill
> (1913).
> > Historical note, O.E. Monnig (1939)..."
> >
> >    Somebody asked for referrences on meteorite
> collecting
> > by early American cultures (Maybe Ed). Here's one
> about
> > Hopewell meteorite collecting, except it goes on
> to discuss
> > dozens of other cultures, locales, and meteorites
> including Casa
> > Grandes. It's a nice piece of work by Olaf Prufer:
> >
>
https://kb.osu.edu/dspace/bitstream/1811/4817/1/V61N06_341.pdf
> >
> >    No surprize, H. H. Nininger wrote "METEORITE
> COLLECTING
> > AMONG ANCIENT AMERICANS" in 1938. That paper can
> be
> > found at:
> >
>
http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0002-7316(193807)4%3A1%3C39%3AMCAAA%3E2.0.CO%3B2-W
> > but it's where no mere mortal without official
> access can view it...
> > You can read the first page, though, which is
> enough to see that
> > it covers much the same ground as the paper
> previously cited
> > (up above this one) which you can get to see (and
> download).
> >
> >    Handing the thread back to you, Doug.
> >
> >
> > Sterling K. Webb
> >
>
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > ----- Original Message ----- 
> > From: "MexicoDoug" <MexicoDoug at aim.com>
> > To: "Martin Altmann" <altmann at meteorite-martin.de>
> > Cc: <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
> > Sent: Monday, November 27, 2006 4:03 PM
> > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite novels
> -gifts II
> >
> >
> > Whooooe, Martin, thanks for the kind comments  --
> I re-read my post,  your
> > words and by all means did take one comment very
> much to heart.  I'm 
> > guilty
> > as charged for not giving further consideration to
> other meteoritically
> > interested cultures between those Germanic and
> ancients.  I think Ed would
> > be the better expert in that department on this
> side of the Atlantic. You
> > speak of the Aztecs as a culture with as rich of a
> treatment of things
> > meteoritic as the medieval traditions in your
> lands... I'd like to know 
> > more
> > about that.
> >
> > I'd be interested in knowing what meteorites the
> Aztecs venerated, feared,
> > deified, or imbued with magical qualities.  Are
> you perhaps thinking of
> > Xocotl the Aztec god of fire and Dark and occult
> side of planet Venus?  I
> > think he was more likey born spewn from a volcano,
> of which there are many
> > in his territory, or as legend goes, a ball of
> feathers fell in a temple 
> > his
> > virgin mother then bore him and others.  So
> Xocotl's mother may have been
> > fertilized by a meteorite in a stretch of faith
> (the feathers could be
> > thought of as cometary)...but these are much
> further musings than others
> > I've made:-)
> >
> > Maybe your reference is meant to consider the over
> 1.5 ton Casas Grandes
> > Iron meteorite mummy found in the ruins of the
> temple of a mysterious
> > peoples of Mexico and carted out to Philadelphia,
> USA.  I say mysterious
> > peoples as I don't think you can call them Aztecs
> with certainty, and they
> > may actually be somewhat Navajo.  Unfortunately,
> the information on that
> > culture is so scant, circumstantial and too
> inconclusive.  But the Casas
> > Grandes meteorite had fallen tens of thousands of
> years before that region
> > was populated.  Thus, at best, one can imagine
> that it was appreciated for
> > its heft and unique nearly indestructable
> properties.
> >
> > The reason I'm not sure we can call that culture
> Aztec, is because the
> > business end of the great Aztec empire was
> generally disconnected and
> > geographically no where near the southern limits
> of that mysterious 
> > culture,
> > to make tribute payments to the empire.  In fact,
> it seems to just
> > mysteroiusly vanished without battle before the
> Spanish first appeared
> > anywhere on the scene.  There is contentious
> speculaion that that 
> > particular
> > culture was from northern New Mexico near
> Colorado, and Ed may be able to
> > add more on that subject.  It seems to me they
> were their own independent
> > culture eventually centered in Paquimé, Chihuahua,
> very close to El Paso
> > TX - Juarez MX, where the meteorite was dug up. 
> Hopefully we can learn
> > more, but anything new will be an uphill battle
> the way the evidence is so
> > limited and thus dominated more by speculations. 
> I am not aware of too 
> > much
> > shared divinity evidence though a minimal amount
> is no doubt common.
> >
> > The the next meteoritic thing in my neck of the
> desert, sitting above the
> > northern tip of Mesoamerica, I can mention are the
> few tektites found way
> > down in the ancient Mayan city of Tikal - but that
> would be in Guatemala
> > already.  These unique chards which are mysteries
> themselves as no more
> > paired have been found after extensive scientific
> field work and study, 
> > and
> > they are generally Chicxulub era mintage.
> >
> > What surprises me, is not the great deal of
> evidence of meteorites in the
> > Aztec and Mayan cities, but rather the lack of it.
>  I really would have
> > thought more references, stonework or carvings
> could have been passed 
> > along.
> > We're talking about a culture with debatably
> sophistiated astronomers and
> > celestial timekeepers rivaling the Europeans and
> Arabs during periods in
> > their history.  I'd be very interested to be
> reminded if I have missed any
> > mythology here even with the destruction here that
> has ensued there has 
> > been
> > a great deal of stoneworks preserved and I am
> unaware of meteorites and
> > comets showing on any of them despite the
> observatories and 
> > sophistication.
> >
> > Martin, I appreciate your kind humility regarding
> the historical record of
> > Germanic accomplishments.  I wasn't referring to
> your Grimms' tale, but
> > rather the Grimms' "Star Money" which I posted the
> other day.  On the 
> > other
> > hand the accomplishments of Chinese, Arab, and
> Japanese, among others
> > certainly survived in some shapes and forms and
> deserve a more important
> > mention than I foolishly brushed by at 4:00 AM.  I
> think though you've
> > assumed a bit too much about my thoughts of rites
> and legend and today's
> > Germany as a nation.  My use of German- and
> Germanic was intended to cover
> > everyone from King Arthur to the Vikings, I hope
> Gauls (not sure are they
> > Germanic?), as well as the Barvarians...Am I wrong
> with this?  The 
> > qualities
> > of these peoples and their attraction to these
> metals for weapons, 
> > Excalibur
> > itself I mentioned, the sword legend would have
> pulled from a 
> > stone...etc...
> > Perhaps the Romans with the push for
> de-paganization most effectively
> > stiffled throughout the empire idolization of
> metals and weapons and that 
> > is
> > the simple reason - I don't know.
> >
> > But, since you mention the enlightenment to
> Chladni's time for things
> > meteoritic, I'd say be careful not to be a fish in
> a fishbowl who doesn't
> > appreciate the water that surrounds him as we
> thirsty and envious cats are
> > looking in with our saucery eyes for a bite to
> eat.  Take explorers as
> > recent as Alexander von Humboldt, who I think
> recovered meteoritical iron
> > from Chupaderos MX most probably a few short
> months _before_ the French 
> > fall
> > in L'Aigle reached him.  Then, he went to visit
> his good friend Thomas
> > Jefferson in Washington for several weeks they
> managed to socialize many,
> > many stimulating hours their mutual satisfaction,
> and I fully suspect that
> > Jefferson would have been given the opportunity to
> see this, after their
> > extensive scientific and social discussions. 
> Interestingly, L'Aigle must
> > have been old news to Baron von Humboldt once he
> traveled from Mexico to
> > Washington DC, and Humboldt was certainly up on
> the geological sciences 
> > from
> > France (as a matter of fact he and Jefferson even
> corresponded in French 
> > on
> > ocassion). This puts a different perspective
> entirely on Jefferson's 
> > famous
> > satirical Yankee comments, especially knowing the
> master politician and
> > skilled manipulator of the press in the new
> anarchy he delighted in.  The
> > Secretary of State had to offer the Baron a visa
> and permit to carry many
> > scientific samplings from Latin America,  Any more
> info you might have 
> > here?
> > Would this have been discussed?  Was the iron
> meteorite actually collected
> > in 1803 by Humboldt, part of the bill of lading,
> or did it somehow get 
> > into
> > his possession at a later date?? These are burning
> questions.  Humboldt
> > helped Jefferson enough to plan together the
> expedition for the Lousiana
> > Purchase, and how to collect, I wonder if they
> corresponded in 1807 about
> > the Weston fall?
> >
> > I even live near a nice street named after
> Humboldt in Mexico.   Less than
> > five short years in Latin America...the records of
> his 12 months of 
> > travels
> > throughout Mexico are no doubt archived with great
> precision somewhere in
> > Berlin and in scattered reprints in Mexico.  Which
> street in Munich is 
> > named
> > after a Mexican explorer :-) ?
> >
> > Best wishes, Doug
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message ----- 
> > From: "Martin Altmann"
> <altmann at meteorite-martin.de>
> > To: "'MexicoDoug'" <MexicoDoug at aim.com>;
> > <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
> > Sent: Monday, November 27, 2006 7:33 AM
> > Subject: AW: [meteorite-list] Meteorite novels
> -gifts II
> >
> >
> > Oops Doug,
> >
> > Thou shalt not over-interpret.
> > I can't find any increased interest in nor any
> cultural reception of
> > meteorites in German history, transcending those
> in other countries.
> > Meteorites were vulgar superstition, in best case
> they were kept in 
> > cabinets
> > as curiosities (and later after Enlightment thrown
> to trash).
> > In the Grimm collection of folk tales, the Elbogen
> chunk isn't mentioned 
> > as
> > felt from sky and it's only one story of a
> metamorphosis of many others 
> > (in
> > this case an addendum of the tale, where some
> dwarves were turned into
> > stones).
> > Nor aren't there many stones left from pre-1800,
> nor was meteoritics a
> > monopole of german scientists. There were many
> more from French, Poland,
> > Russia...
> > And if you want to ride the nationalistic horse,
> "Chladni" is a Slovak (or
> > was it Slovene name), hehe.
> > Science always was international, always. Remember
> the times of the 
> > islamic
> > occupation in Spain, where for centuries people
> bashed their heads in, but
> > on the other hand, the Islamic scientists were
> authorities in the 
> > christian
> > literature like the old Greeks and the Church
> Fathers.
> >
> > Perhaps a difference is, that Chladni collected
> reports from old falls,
> > naturally a lot from German sources too, but I'm
> sure, that if one would
> > study the chronicles in other languages and
> countries, there are also a 
> > lot
> > to be found. (recently someone sent me a cool
> fireball report from a local
> > Church's chronicle from 17th century).
> >
> > And if you refer to the Ensisheim stone, remember
> the pamphlets following
> > the fall, where that fall was taken for an evil
> omen.
> > Thus following the hysterical tradition, that all
> uncommon phenomena in
> > nature would be bad signs of God's wrath - and in
> this respect, Europe is
> > quite unique, because, as far as I know, in all
> other cultures, where
> > meteorites are mentioned (or found), meteorites
> never had bad 
> > connotations.
> >
> > " and that Generally that Germans attributed
> mystical
> > powers to meteorites like no other culture since
> the ancients".
> >
> > See above and certainly not: Indonesia, Mongolia,
> Japan, the Inuit, the
> > American Indians, for the Aztecs, Inka ect, you
> have to look, Arabia and 
> > so
> > on I guess quite everywhere meteorites were
> venerated or at least used for
> > tools or jewellery. Would be a nice new thread!
> >
> > Has anyone pictures of the bracelets of meteoritic
> iron from 7th-5th 
> > century
> > b.C. in the museum of Czestochowa Rakow in Poland,
> Marcin?
> >
> > Eh and Doug, there wasn't any German national
> "identity" until 19th 
> > century.
> > And go a little bit back, Charlemagne, were where
> there the French, where
> > the Germans? It was always multi-ethnical. The
> racism, if I let the 
> > history
> > of colonisation aside and the exaggerated
> nationalism was rather an
> > invention of the 19th century. And thus I guess
> Sterling and me didn't 
> > want
> > to depress you, as there is hope, for at least
> some parts on the globe.
> > Meanwhile we are living in a much more
> communicative, mobile (and
> > hedonistic?) world, in Europe people remember the
> high price they had to 
> > pay
> > for nationalistic insanity, a little bit bad is,
> that the principle of 
> > Cold
> > War had worked well...
> > At least Doug, the preconditions are somewhat
> better, than they were ever
> > before.
> >
> > Let's have new thread. Pre A.D. 1800 meteoritics!
> > Dirk tell us about Asia!
> > Norbert, Australia?
> > Marie-Pelé France?
> > Serguej, Russia?
> > Andrzej Poland.
> > Rob, da Commonwealth?
> > Christian K&K meteorites.
> > Manjoi - India!
> > Joern Germany.
> > Africa?
> > Doug - Middle America
> > And so on!
> >
> > Buckleboo!
> > Martin
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
> > Von: meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com
> >
> [mailto:meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com]
> Im Auftrag von
> > MexicoDoug
> > Gesendet: Montag, 27. November 2006 11:54
> > An: Sterling K. Webb
> > Cc: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com
> > Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite novels
> -gifts II
> >
> > Hi Sterling,
> >
> > 1-The fact that the French army wanted to enrage
> the Bohemians by tossing
> > the Elbogen iron meteorite in the well is
> indisputable.  This meteorite is
> > Grade A Prime cultural heritage for Bohemia where
> many ethnic Germans 
> > lived
> > and was ethnically a contested territory in my
> understanding.  The French
> > actions were part of the hostilities kicked off by
> the War of Jenkins' Ear
> > which morphed into that of Austrian Succession
> there.  The exciting point
> > being that Germans/Bohemians had a cultural
> appreciation of meteorites 
> > which
> >
> > truly raptures my imagination with pride, cultural
> curiousity and a 
> > transfer
> >
> > of a certain degree of magic in my mind's eye, due
> to my own fascination
> > with steel from space.
> >
> > 2- My mention of the then Governer of Georgia,
> Gen. Oglethorpe's bellicose
> > expedition of Georgians and Carolinians was to
> bring to your attention 
> > this
> > large American campaign in the War of Jenkins'
> Ear, intended to correct 
> > your
> >
> > statement that Americans never had the odd
> pleasure of partaking in that
> > euphonious war (Soundly put!).
> >
> > Nothing much I can do about wars despite my
> heart's desires, other than 
> > hope
> >
> > I would not be called to participate in them.  I
> really have absolutely no
> > opinions or desire to think about human
> intraspecies' inhumanity.
> >
> > I'll tender a request for a favor that my kindly
> hijacked thread be 
> > returned
> >
> > to romantic, fantasy and other fictional books on
> meteorites.  I have to
> > admit to believing that anything goes in a
> discussion group, but was 
> > unhappy
> >
> > that a thread on romantic and adventure novels
> with meteorites in their
> > plots turned into a discussion of how Europe had
> more and longer wars than
> > the USA. :-( !!!!!
> >
> > .  ... to imagine the relationship between
> Caledfwlch, Gram, Hrunting,
> > Naegling, the Magical Giant Sword that slew
> Grendel's mother, so difficult
> > to hoist or lift up is a recurring theme, and
> meteorites, which held a
> > special fascination in Germanic cultures and
> craftmanships is very 
> > amazing,
> > though.  The stone Ensisheim, which fell in German
> territory at the time 
> > was
> >
> > recognized by the German Emperor in 1492 to have
> come from the sky, and
> > ordered conserved thanks to him.  It is
> interesting that the "civilized
> > world" didn't really "accept" that rock fell from
> space until L'Aigle
> > pummeled the last holdouts in France more than 300
> years later, like a
> > thunder fromThor's hammer.  With the greatest
> respect to France, who seem 
> > to
> >
> > have been ahead of the Americans (one can easily
> imagine that the 
> > Americans
> > followed the French lead), I believe the
> Franco-Germanic relationship
> > strongly colored the French acceptance of
> meteoritical phenomena and gets 
> > to
> >
> > the heart of meteorite status in the milieu. 
> I.e., I bet in the 1740's 
> > part
> >
> > of the reason the Elbogen meteorite got such harsh
> treatment was due to 
> > the
> > memory of Ensisheim having been declared a
> favorable German icon to unite 
> > in
> >
> > the war against France, and that Generally that
> Germans attributed 
> > mystical
> > powers to meteorites like no other culture since
> the ancients.  I think 
> > the
> > French were strongly influenced by the widespread
> meteorite reverance
> > thoughout Germanic cultures (take Grimms' tales
> and Martin's stories of 
> > the
> > converted burgrave on Elbogen, and German
> fascination with hammers, axes 
> > and
> >
> > metal in general and a its possible relationship
> to meteoritic iron), 
> > which
> > provided resistance to recognizing that meteorites
> really did come from
> > heaven as their competing Germanic neighbors
> believed...
> >
> > Best wishes,
> > Doug
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message ----- 
> > From: "Sterling K. Webb"
> <sterling_k_webb at sbcglobal.net>
> > To: "Meteorite List"
> <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
> > Cc: "MexicoDoug" <MexicoDoug at aim.com>; "Martin
> Altmann"
> > <Altmann at Meteorite-Martin.de>
> > Sent: Sunday, November 26, 2006 9:04 PM
> > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite novels
> -gifts II
> >
> >
> >> Hi, Doug, Martin, List,
> >>
> >>    Operating on the principle that the longer I
> talk,
> >> the more likely my chance to really annoy someone
> >> becomes, I snipped a lot of sentences out of what
> >> I originally wrote.
> >>
> >>    The history of the USA up until 1900-1910 is
> best
> >> described as a kind of "ongoing conflict,"
> somewhat
> >> short of formal war. I was going to say that, so
> no
> >> disagreement there. In fact, the history of most
> nations
> >> can be so described with some accuracy.
> >>
> >>    Even with Martin's addition of a few hundred
> more
> >> wars for Europe, there's a background of conflict
> that
> >> generates them. The Serbian obsession with
> Kosovo,
> >> its ancient "homeland," dates from a conquest
> late in
> >> the first millennium AD of the people who still
> live there,
> >> the Illyrians, or rather their descendents, who
> were there
> >> before the first millennium BC, which makes the
> Serbian
> >> "historical" claim look a little silly.
> >>
> >>    But these ethnic histories solve nothing; one
> has only
> >> to look at the Middle East to have that
> demonstrated.
> >> Such arguments over who is exclusively entitled
> to the
> >> "land" are endless, unending, and productive of
> nothing
> >> but carnage, even between folks as completely and
> >> totally indistinguishable as two Irishmen.
> >>
> >>    United Statesians (so as to avoid the
> over-broad usage
> >> of "Americans") mostly have what is so often
> called a
> >> "naive" view: "Why doesn't everybody just forget
> about
> >> settling the score for the past and try to work
> on solving
> >> the problems that exist NOW?"
> >>
> >>    The scorn of the sophisticated not
> withstanding, there
> >> is a another name for this: SANITY. If the price
> of this
> >> mental health is to be achieved by, say, modern
> Europeans,
> >> acting as if THEY never had a war, being morally
> superior
> >> to those so backward as to get stuck in
> conflicts, well,
> >> sanity is worth that. That IS the idea -- to dump
> the past.
> >> "History," said James Joyce a century ago, "is a
> nightmare
> >> I'm trying to wake up from."
> >>
> >>> does Europe have a "Battle of Little Bighorn",
> which...
> >>> was the fight leading to the demise of a race of
> people?
> >>
> >>    Duh. Yeah! And the Sioux (and all the other
> tribes
> >> that participated in an INDIAN victory there)
> still exist,
> >> no thanks to General Custer, just as Jews still
> exist, no
> >> thanks to... We weren't going to drag up the
> past,
> >> were we?
> >>
> >>> if the Indians had caught on quicker...
> >>
> >>    American natives caught on right away. They
> each
> >> and all sat in council about what to do about the
> odd
> >> newcomers from the very year they first showed
> up!
> >> Every strategy you can imagine was tried. It's
> common-
> >> place to present these centuries of native
> statecraft as
> >> if they all sat there like idiots until the late
> 1800's, but
> >> that notion is what is really demeaning. A delay
> of a
> >> potential annihilation for centuries is a major
> achievement;
> >> there are innumerable spots around the globe
> where
> >> indigenous peoples have been destroyed in a
> decade
> >> or three. As for uniting scores, even hundreds,
> of
> >> nations with no common language, belief, or
> culture,
> >> ask Tecumseh about how that worked out...
> >>
> >>    The real "war" was epidemiological. The "Black
> >> Death" made its way into North America ahead of
> the
> >> Europeans, in the 15th century, and was followed
> >> shortly by a flood of new European diseases in
> the
> >> next century. Europeans, in person, were entering
> >> devastated and de-populated lands everywhere in
> >> the "New World," north and south. Not that they
> >> weren't trying to kill the locals, just that
> their efforts
> >> were puny compared to what the microbes (whose
> >> existence both sides were unaware of)
> accomplished.
> >> It's hard to slow down an invasion when your own
> >> population is reduced by up to 90%!
> >>
> >>    I'm sorry you were so upset by General
> Oglethorpe
> >> and the Battle of Bloody Marsh, Doug, but I will
> remind
> >> you that it took place after Jerkins carted his
> ear-in-a-jar
> >> up to the British Parliment and got Walpole to
> declare
> >> the Ear War. Had the fortunes of war fallen
> differently,
> >> why, you would be walking the picturesque calles
> de
> >> Neuvo Atlanta, capitol of Las Floridas del Norte,
> while
> >> avoiding the camera-toting USian tourists in
> their garish
> >> shirts and plastic flip-flops...
> >>
> >>    I would love to "kick around" the causes of
> the
> >> five-day "Football War" with you, Doug, but I
> think
> >> that it breaks the tenuous chain that links
> Jenkins' ear
> >> to a wet meteorite in a moat surrounded by
> mocking
> >> Frenchmen!
> >>
> >>
> >> Sterling K. Webb
> >>
>
------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> And Bill just summed it up in three sentences
> better
> >> than either of us, I think...
> >>
>
------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> ----- Original Message ----- 
> >> From: "MexicoDoug" <MexicoDoug at aim.com>
> >> To: "Sterling K. Webb"
> <sterling_k_webb at sbcglobal.net>
> >> Cc: <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
> >> Sent: Saturday, November 25, 2006 8:56 PM
> >> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite novels
> -gifts II
> >>
> >>
> >>> Sterling wrote:
> >>> "1739-1740 War of Jenkins' Ear"
> >>> "And [the USA's] certainly never managed to have
> a war as magnificently
> >>> named as "The War of Jenkins' Ear"! Now, that's
> how to name a war! 
> >>> Clear,
> >
> >>> concise, and everybody knows exactly what it's
> all about."
> >>>
> >>> Hey Sterling,
> >>>
> >>> Hah! remember studies in Western Civ - between
> Physics and philosophy
> >>> class :-) -, really, the USA has darn well so
> managed to have a war
> >>> equally magnificient in name as the "War of
> Jenkin's Ear".
> >>>
> >>> It was called "The War of Jenkin's Ear"; Same
> Jenkins - and it wasn't
> >>> Jenkin's other ear.  Don't forget that Jenkin's
> ear was supposedly
> >>> severed in the Americas, and he was as English
> as George Washington at
> >>> the time. So I'd Argue that not only did the
> Americans participate in
> >>> that war - they also started it.  Not to mention
> the USA started the
> >>> funiest named war of all: The "Quasi-War" as
> thanks to the French right
> >>> after the French supported the American
> Independence effort.
> >>>
> >>> That particular Jenkin's Ear war in the 1740's
> is actually the same war
> >>> that was contracted by the European continent
> and spread to Bohemia and
> >>> resulted in the French tossing the Elbogen Iron
> meteorite down the to 
> >>> the
> >
> >>> bottom of the Bohemian well where it rusted for
> 40 years.  It was a 
> >>> small
> >
> >>> world back then, too.  In the USA, in the great
> American State of
> >>> Georgia, the military general who founded
> Georgia wasted no time to
> >>> marshal his proud Savannah compatriots and
> adventurous Charlestonians 
> >>> out
> >
> >>> of South Carolina to pillage everything from
> Jacksonville, Florida to 
> >>> St.
> >
> >>> Augustine, and that was only openers.
> >>>
> >>> Oh the United States has had oogles more
> practically nameless wars than
> >>> you give it credit for in those years.  They
> don't Google easily out of 
> >>> a
> >
> >>> database like your nice European ones, but they
> were bloodier if Indians
> >>> are men considered equal in the eyes of the
> Creator.  You've got to
> >>> consider that in Europe all those wars were
> spread among 20-30 
> >>> countries.
> >
> >>> How many Indian real nations do you think the
> singular USA trounced in a
> >>> religious ferver to achieve its destiny?  The
> USA is a nation that was
> >>> perpetually at war on its own and its extended
> frontiers.  There are 
> >>> more
> >
> >>> Indian wars alone, than Indian nations that
> yielded in defeat against 
> >>> the
> >
> >>> cleansing of the continent from Atlantic to
> Pacific.  Take Florida, 
> >>> which
> >
> >>> heaped war upon wars, genocide and forced
> relocation.  Or maybe
> >>> Missouri - if the Indians had caught on quicker,
> you might be living in 
> >>> a
> >
> >>> teepee today, or at least your neighbor  :-)
> >>>
> >>> As for the lack of colorful names of wars in the
> USA even without
> >>> considering who started the War of Jenkin's Ear,
> does Europe have a
> >>> "Battle of Little Bighorn", which is a battle
> the war easily can assume
> >>> for the name, and really was the fight leading
> to the demise of a race 
> >>> of
> >
> >>> people? If that isn't enough, how about the
> Gipper's "Star Wars", who 
> >>> has
> >
> >>> one of those programs besides George Lucas?  And
> I am convinced that the
> >>> US participated as a silent partner in the
> infamous "Football War," as
> >>> well...
> >>>
> >>> Best wishes, Doug
> >>> (no slights to any nation, no offense; we are
> who we are and I can live
> >>> with that just fine, until someone else tosses a
> spectacular iron in a
> >>> well to fester.  Guess the Evian was too
> depleted in minerals for their
> >>> taste)
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> thread truncated...
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> > ______________________________________________
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> > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com
> >
>
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> >
> > ______________________________________________
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> > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com
> >
>
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> >
> >
> > 
> 
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