[meteorite-list] New Topics title- Meteorites and Archaeology... was novels

[MexicoDoug]

Hola Sterling, Got the handoff, shall I make it to all the 9 yards' 
line....Hardly a hijacking since a detailed analysis of War & Peace was 
kindly left to the scholars:-)

Wow, Sterling, Nice catch, I had never read far enough into the Tikal 
tektites to find that they had been shown distinct from the K/T boundary 
material, thanks for the correction.  The fact that the were transported 
there with source unknown was enough to turn me off about pursuing it - and 
it is too easy for the sloppy reader to assume a Chicxulub relationship due 
to the proximity.  I now wonder if the tektites were truly paired, or can be 
paired, to any Indochinites.  But the concept of import from Asia or Oceania 
is TOTALLY COOL, especially if you've every made the journey to Tikal as I 
did (before knowing about the tektites' find unfortunately), you'll 
definitely agree that it is not a likely place for things to appear. 
Something like a Mayan version of "Tarzan and the Lost City" comes to mind.

Saludos Dirk and thanks for the kind comments below... what you mention of 
the Navajo's possible role in the disappearance of the Casas Grandes culture 
could make perfect sense in a parallel way.  Just a minor clarification, and 
that is that it is not certain that the Casas Grandes culture which had the 
big iron meteorite excavated from the Paquime temple were any more Puebloan 
than the were Aztec - though both elements have been argued.  There are 
currently no exclusive answers to that question of origin, which makes it 
nicely mysterious...The confusion here arises in that the Arizona locality 
"Casa Grande" is a different locality from the Northern Mexico locality of 
"Casas Grandes".  The are sufficiently geographically close that you still 
could be right, though in the Mexican Casas Grandes case is more probably 
not a pure Puebloan race than something different and independent.  And 
their building styles were similar, only there were just lots more houses in 
Paquime...! (hence Casas Grandes vs. the singular ?? :-))  Thanks for the 
links.

Best wishes, Doug

Dirk kindly wrote:
Dear Doug,  You mentioned the Navajo.  The Dene (Navajo) didn`t
arrive New Mexico and the American Southwest until
around 1500AD; and it has been proposed that the
demise of the Puebloan (Casas Grande) culture MAY have
been contributed to by their arrival.

http://www.lapahie.com/Timeline_to_1491.cfm

  Casas Grande pre-dates their arrival.  You may do a
Web search for more information beyond this link:

http://whc.unesco.org/pg.cfm?cid=31&id_site=560

  Best, Dirk...Tokyo




Sterling wrote:


> Hi, Doug,
>
>    Hijacking your nice thread again...
>
>    The tektites in Tikal didn't "find their way" there
> by any other means than falling out of the sky. They
> have been found in the temples, anciently collected,
> and one much more degraded one has been found
> in the forests surrounding.
>
>    Alan Hildebrandt dated them and they fall right
> into the upper end of the dating spread for Australite/
> Indochinite tektites, which, surprise! they look just
> exactly like. Grab your globe and give it a twirl.
> Tikal's "antipodal point" is on the western edge of
> the Australo-Asian strewn field. Likewise, an Ivorite
> was recovered from off shore of the Australian coast.
> equally antipodal to Ivory Coast, unless you think
> "the currents" carried it there -:) laughing...
>
>     Casa Grande was found in 1867: "A mass of 3407lb
> was found in an ancient tomb, E.G. Tarayre (1867).
> L. Fletcher (1890) implies that this mass was presented
> to the Smithsonian Institution in 1876. First Description,
> W. Tassin (1902). Analysis, 7.74 %Ni, G.P. Merrill (1913).
> Historical note, O.E. Monnig (1939)..."
>
>    Somebody asked for referrences on meteorite collecting
> by early American cultures (Maybe Ed). Here's one about
> Hopewell meteorite collecting, except it goes on to discuss
> dozens of other cultures, locales, and meteorites including Casa
> Grandes. It's a nice piece of work by Olaf Prufer:
> https://kb.osu.edu/dspace/bitstream/1811/4817/1/V61N06_341.pdf
>
>    No surprize, H. H. Nininger wrote "METEORITE COLLECTING
> AMONG ANCIENT AMERICANS" in 1938. That paper can be
> found at:
> http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0002-7316(193807)4%3A1%3C39%3AMCAAA%3E2.0.CO%3B2-W
> but it's where no mere mortal without official access can view it...
> You can read the first page, though, which is enough to see that
> it covers much the same ground as the paper previously cited
> (up above this one) which you can get to see (and download).
>
>    Handing the thread back to you, Doug.
>
>
> Sterling K. Webb
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "MexicoDoug" <MexicoDoug at aim.com>
> To: "Martin Altmann" <altmann at meteorite-martin.de>
> Cc: <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
> Sent: Monday, November 27, 2006 4:03 PM
> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite novels -gifts II
>
>
> Whooooe, Martin, thanks for the kind comments  -- I re-read my post,  your
> words and by all means did take one comment very much to heart.  I'm 
> guilty
> as charged for not giving further consideration to other meteoritically
> interested cultures between those Germanic and ancients.  I think Ed would
> be the better expert in that department on this side of the Atlantic. You
> speak of the Aztecs as a culture with as rich of a treatment of things
> meteoritic as the medieval traditions in your lands... I'd like to know 
> more
> about that.
>
> I'd be interested in knowing what meteorites the Aztecs venerated, feared,
> deified, or imbued with magical qualities.  Are you perhaps thinking of
> Xocotl the Aztec god of fire and Dark and occult side of planet Venus?  I
> think he was more likey born spewn from a volcano, of which there are many
> in his territory, or as legend goes, a ball of feathers fell in a temple 
> his
> virgin mother then bore him and others.  So Xocotl's mother may have been
> fertilized by a meteorite in a stretch of faith (the feathers could be
> thought of as cometary)...but these are much further musings than others
> I've made:-)
>
> Maybe your reference is meant to consider the over 1.5 ton Casas Grandes
> Iron meteorite mummy found in the ruins of the temple of a mysterious
> peoples of Mexico and carted out to Philadelphia, USA.  I say mysterious
> peoples as I don't think you can call them Aztecs with certainty, and they
> may actually be somewhat Navajo.  Unfortunately, the information on that
> culture is so scant, circumstantial and too inconclusive.  But the Casas
> Grandes meteorite had fallen tens of thousands of years before that region
> was populated.  Thus, at best, one can imagine that it was appreciated for
> its heft and unique nearly indestructable properties.
>
> The reason I'm not sure we can call that culture Aztec, is because the
> business end of the great Aztec empire was generally disconnected and
> geographically no where near the southern limits of that mysterious 
> culture,
> to make tribute payments to the empire.  In fact, it seems to just
> mysteroiusly vanished without battle before the Spanish first appeared
> anywhere on the scene.  There is contentious speculaion that that 
> particular
> culture was from northern New Mexico near Colorado, and Ed may be able to
> add more on that subject.  It seems to me they were their own independent
> culture eventually centered in Paquimé, Chihuahua, very close to El Paso
> TX - Juarez MX, where the meteorite was dug up.  Hopefully we can learn
> more, but anything new will be an uphill battle the way the evidence is so
> limited and thus dominated more by speculations.  I am not aware of too 
> much
> shared divinity evidence though a minimal amount is no doubt common.
>
> The the next meteoritic thing in my neck of the desert, sitting above the
> northern tip of Mesoamerica, I can mention are the few tektites found way
> down in the ancient Mayan city of Tikal - but that would be in Guatemala
> already.  These unique chards which are mysteries themselves as no more
> paired have been found after extensive scientific field work and study, 
> and
> they are generally Chicxulub era mintage.
>
> What surprises me, is not the great deal of evidence of meteorites in the
> Aztec and Mayan cities, but rather the lack of it.  I really would have
> thought more references, stonework or carvings could have been passed 
> along.
> We're talking about a culture with debatably sophistiated astronomers and
> celestial timekeepers rivaling the Europeans and Arabs during periods in
> their history.  I'd be very interested to be reminded if I have missed any
> mythology here even with the destruction here that has ensued there has 
> been
> a great deal of stoneworks preserved and I am unaware of meteorites and
> comets showing on any of them despite the observatories and 
> sophistication.
>
> Martin, I appreciate your kind humility regarding the historical record of
> Germanic accomplishments.  I wasn't referring to your Grimms' tale, but
> rather the Grimms' "Star Money" which I posted the other day.  On the 
> other
> hand the accomplishments of Chinese, Arab, and Japanese, among others
> certainly survived in some shapes and forms and deserve a more important
> mention than I foolishly brushed by at 4:00 AM.  I think though you've
> assumed a bit too much about my thoughts of rites and legend and today's
> Germany as a nation.  My use of German- and Germanic was intended to cover
> everyone from King Arthur to the Vikings, I hope Gauls (not sure are they
> Germanic?), as well as the Barvarians...Am I wrong with this?  The 
> qualities
> of these peoples and their attraction to these metals for weapons, 
> Excalibur
> itself I mentioned, the sword legend would have pulled from a 
> stone...etc...
> Perhaps the Romans with the push for de-paganization most effectively
> stiffled throughout the empire idolization of metals and weapons and that 
> is
> the simple reason - I don't know.
>
> But, since you mention the enlightenment to Chladni's time for things
> meteoritic, I'd say be careful not to be a fish in a fishbowl who doesn't
> appreciate the water that surrounds him as we thirsty and envious cats are
> looking in with our saucery eyes for a bite to eat.  Take explorers as
> recent as Alexander von Humboldt, who I think recovered meteoritical iron
> from Chupaderos MX most probably a few short months _before_ the French 
> fall
> in L'Aigle reached him.  Then, he went to visit his good friend Thomas
> Jefferson in Washington for several weeks they managed to socialize many,
> many stimulating hours their mutual satisfaction, and I fully suspect that
> Jefferson would have been given the opportunity to see this, after their
> extensive scientific and social discussions.  Interestingly, L'Aigle must
> have been old news to Baron von Humboldt once he traveled from Mexico to
> Washington DC, and Humboldt was certainly up on the geological sciences 
> from
> France (as a matter of fact he and Jefferson even corresponded in French 
> on
> ocassion). This puts a different perspective entirely on Jefferson's 
> famous
> satirical Yankee comments, especially knowing the master politician and
> skilled manipulator of the press in the new anarchy he delighted in.  The
> Secretary of State had to offer the Baron a visa and permit to carry many
> scientific samplings from Latin America,  Any more info you might have 
> here?
> Would this have been discussed?  Was the iron meteorite actually collected
> in 1803 by Humboldt, part of the bill of lading, or did it somehow get 
> into
> his possession at a later date?? These are burning questions.  Humboldt
> helped Jefferson enough to plan together the expedition for the Lousiana
> Purchase, and how to collect, I wonder if they corresponded in 1807 about
> the Weston fall?
>
> I even live near a nice street named after Humboldt in Mexico.   Less than
> five short years in Latin America...the records of his 12 months of 
> travels
> throughout Mexico are no doubt archived with great precision somewhere in
> Berlin and in scattered reprints in Mexico.  Which street in Munich is 
> named
> after a Mexican explorer :-) ?
>
> Best wishes, Doug
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Martin Altmann" <altmann at meteorite-martin.de>
> To: "'MexicoDoug'" <MexicoDoug at aim.com>;
> <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
> Sent: Monday, November 27, 2006 7:33 AM
> Subject: AW: [meteorite-list] Meteorite novels -gifts II
>
>
> Oops Doug,
>
> Thou shalt not over-interpret.
> I can't find any increased interest in nor any cultural reception of
> meteorites in German history, transcending those in other countries.
> Meteorites were vulgar superstition, in best case they were kept in 
> cabinets
> as curiosities (and later after Enlightment thrown to trash).
> In the Grimm collection of folk tales, the Elbogen chunk isn't mentioned 
> as
> felt from sky and it's only one story of a metamorphosis of many others 
> (in
> this case an addendum of the tale, where some dwarves were turned into
> stones).
> Nor aren't there many stones left from pre-1800, nor was meteoritics a
> monopole of german scientists. There were many more from French, Poland,
> Russia...
> And if you want to ride the nationalistic horse, "Chladni" is a Slovak (or
> was it Slovene name), hehe.
> Science always was international, always. Remember the times of the 
> islamic
> occupation in Spain, where for centuries people bashed their heads in, but
> on the other hand, the Islamic scientists were authorities in the 
> christian
> literature like the old Greeks and the Church Fathers.
>
> Perhaps a difference is, that Chladni collected reports from old falls,
> naturally a lot from German sources too, but I'm sure, that if one would
> study the chronicles in other languages and countries, there are also a 
> lot
> to be found. (recently someone sent me a cool fireball report from a local
> Church's chronicle from 17th century).
>
> And if you refer to the Ensisheim stone, remember the pamphlets following
> the fall, where that fall was taken for an evil omen.
> Thus following the hysterical tradition, that all uncommon phenomena in
> nature would be bad signs of God's wrath - and in this respect, Europe is
> quite unique, because, as far as I know, in all other cultures, where
> meteorites are mentioned (or found), meteorites never had bad 
> connotations.
>
> " and that Generally that Germans attributed mystical
> powers to meteorites like no other culture since the ancients".
>
> See above and certainly not: Indonesia, Mongolia, Japan, the Inuit, the
> American Indians, for the Aztecs, Inka ect, you have to look, Arabia and 
> so
> on I guess quite everywhere meteorites were venerated or at least used for
> tools or jewellery. Would be a nice new thread!
>
> Has anyone pictures of the bracelets of meteoritic iron from 7th-5th 
> century
> b.C. in the museum of Czestochowa Rakow in Poland, Marcin?
>
> Eh and Doug, there wasn't any German national "identity" until 19th 
> century.
> And go a little bit back, Charlemagne, were where there the French, where
> the Germans? It was always multi-ethnical. The racism, if I let the 
> history
> of colonisation aside and the exaggerated nationalism was rather an
> invention of the 19th century. And thus I guess Sterling and me didn't 
> want
> to depress you, as there is hope, for at least some parts on the globe.
> Meanwhile we are living in a much more communicative, mobile (and
> hedonistic?) world, in Europe people remember the high price they had to 
> pay
> for nationalistic insanity, a little bit bad is, that the principle of 
> Cold
> War had worked well...
> At least Doug, the preconditions are somewhat better, than they were ever
> before.
>
> Let's have new thread. Pre A.D. 1800 meteoritics!
> Dirk tell us about Asia!
> Norbert, Australia?
> Marie-Pelé France?
> Serguej, Russia?
> Andrzej Poland.
> Rob, da Commonwealth?
> Christian K&K meteorites.
> Manjoi - India!
> Joern Germany.
> Africa?
> Doug - Middle America
> And so on!
>
> Buckleboo!
> Martin
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
> Von: meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com
> [mailto:meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von
> MexicoDoug
> Gesendet: Montag, 27. November 2006 11:54
> An: Sterling K. Webb
> Cc: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com
> Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite novels -gifts II
>
> Hi Sterling,
>
> 1-The fact that the French army wanted to enrage the Bohemians by tossing
> the Elbogen iron meteorite in the well is indisputable.  This meteorite is
> Grade A Prime cultural heritage for Bohemia where many ethnic Germans 
> lived
> and was ethnically a contested territory in my understanding.  The French
> actions were part of the hostilities kicked off by the War of Jenkins' Ear
> which morphed into that of Austrian Succession there.  The exciting point
> being that Germans/Bohemians had a cultural appreciation of meteorites 
> which
>
> truly raptures my imagination with pride, cultural curiousity and a 
> transfer
>
> of a certain degree of magic in my mind's eye, due to my own fascination
> with steel from space.
>
> 2- My mention of the then Governer of Georgia, Gen. Oglethorpe's bellicose
> expedition of Georgians and Carolinians was to bring to your attention 
> this
> large American campaign in the War of Jenkins' Ear, intended to correct 
> your
>
> statement that Americans never had the odd pleasure of partaking in that
> euphonious war (Soundly put!).
>
> Nothing much I can do about wars despite my heart's desires, other than 
> hope
>
> I would not be called to participate in them.  I really have absolutely no
> opinions or desire to think about human intraspecies' inhumanity.
>
> I'll tender a request for a favor that my kindly hijacked thread be 
> returned
>
> to romantic, fantasy and other fictional books on meteorites.  I have to
> admit to believing that anything goes in a discussion group, but was 
> unhappy
>
> that a thread on romantic and adventure novels with meteorites in their
> plots turned into a discussion of how Europe had more and longer wars than
> the USA. :-( !!!!!
>
> .  ... to imagine the relationship between Caledfwlch, Gram, Hrunting,
> Naegling, the Magical Giant Sword that slew Grendel's mother, so difficult
> to hoist or lift up is a recurring theme, and meteorites, which held a
> special fascination in Germanic cultures and craftmanships is very 
> amazing,
> though.  The stone Ensisheim, which fell in German territory at the time 
> was
>
> recognized by the German Emperor in 1492 to have come from the sky, and
> ordered conserved thanks to him.  It is interesting that the "civilized
> world" didn't really "accept" that rock fell from space until L'Aigle
> pummeled the last holdouts in France more than 300 years later, like a
> thunder fromThor's hammer.  With the greatest respect to France, who seem 
> to
>
> have been ahead of the Americans (one can easily imagine that the 
> Americans
> followed the French lead), I believe the Franco-Germanic relationship
> strongly colored the French acceptance of meteoritical phenomena and gets 
> to
>
> the heart of meteorite status in the milieu.  I.e., I bet in the 1740's 
> part
>
> of the reason the Elbogen meteorite got such harsh treatment was due to 
> the
> memory of Ensisheim having been declared a favorable German icon to unite 
> in
>
> the war against France, and that Generally that Germans attributed 
> mystical
> powers to meteorites like no other culture since the ancients.  I think 
> the
> French were strongly influenced by the widespread meteorite reverance
> thoughout Germanic cultures (take Grimms' tales and Martin's stories of 
> the
> converted burgrave on Elbogen, and German fascination with hammers, axes 
> and
>
> metal in general and a its possible relationship to meteoritic iron), 
> which
> provided resistance to recognizing that meteorites really did come from
> heaven as their competing Germanic neighbors believed...
>
> Best wishes,
> Doug
>
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Sterling K. Webb" <sterling_k_webb at sbcglobal.net>
> To: "Meteorite List" <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
> Cc: "MexicoDoug" <MexicoDoug at aim.com>; "Martin Altmann"
> <Altmann at Meteorite-Martin.de>
> Sent: Sunday, November 26, 2006 9:04 PM
> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite novels -gifts II
>
>
>> Hi, Doug, Martin, List,
>>
>>    Operating on the principle that the longer I talk,
>> the more likely my chance to really annoy someone
>> becomes, I snipped a lot of sentences out of what
>> I originally wrote.
>>
>>    The history of the USA up until 1900-1910 is best
>> described as a kind of "ongoing conflict," somewhat
>> short of formal war. I was going to say that, so no
>> disagreement there. In fact, the history of most nations
>> can be so described with some accuracy.
>>
>>    Even with Martin's addition of a few hundred more
>> wars for Europe, there's a background of conflict that
>> generates them. The Serbian obsession with Kosovo,
>> its ancient "homeland," dates from a conquest late in
>> the first millennium AD of the people who still live there,
>> the Illyrians, or rather their descendents, who were there
>> before the first millennium BC, which makes the Serbian
>> "historical" claim look a little silly.
>>
>>    But these ethnic histories solve nothing; one has only
>> to look at the Middle East to have that demonstrated.
>> Such arguments over who is exclusively entitled to the
>> "land" are endless, unending, and productive of nothing
>> but carnage, even between folks as completely and
>> totally indistinguishable as two Irishmen.
>>
>>    United Statesians (so as to avoid the over-broad usage
>> of "Americans") mostly have what is so often called a
>> "naive" view: "Why doesn't everybody just forget about
>> settling the score for the past and try to work on solving
>> the problems that exist NOW?"
>>
>>    The scorn of the sophisticated not withstanding, there
>> is a another name for this: SANITY. If the price of this
>> mental health is to be achieved by, say, modern Europeans,
>> acting as if THEY never had a war, being morally superior
>> to those so backward as to get stuck in conflicts, well,
>> sanity is worth that. That IS the idea -- to dump the past.
>> "History," said James Joyce a century ago, "is a nightmare
>> I'm trying to wake up from."
>>
>>> does Europe have a "Battle of Little Bighorn", which...
>>> was the fight leading to the demise of a race of people?
>>
>>    Duh. Yeah! And the Sioux (and all the other tribes
>> that participated in an INDIAN victory there) still exist,
>> no thanks to General Custer, just as Jews still exist, no
>> thanks to... We weren't going to drag up the past,
>> were we?
>>
>>> if the Indians had caught on quicker...
>>
>>    American natives caught on right away. They each
>> and all sat in council about what to do about the odd
>> newcomers from the very year they first showed up!
>> Every strategy you can imagine was tried. It's common-
>> place to present these centuries of native statecraft as
>> if they all sat there like idiots until the late 1800's, but
>> that notion is what is really demeaning. A delay of a
>> potential annihilation for centuries is a major achievement;
>> there are innumerable spots around the globe where
>> indigenous peoples have been destroyed in a decade
>> or three. As for uniting scores, even hundreds, of
>> nations with no common language, belief, or culture,
>> ask Tecumseh about how that worked out...
>>
>>    The real "war" was epidemiological. The "Black
>> Death" made its way into North America ahead of the
>> Europeans, in the 15th century, and was followed
>> shortly by a flood of new European diseases in the
>> next century. Europeans, in person, were entering
>> devastated and de-populated lands everywhere in
>> the "New World," north and south. Not that they
>> weren't trying to kill the locals, just that their efforts
>> were puny compared to what the microbes (whose
>> existence both sides were unaware of) accomplished.
>> It's hard to slow down an invasion when your own
>> population is reduced by up to 90%!
>>
>>    I'm sorry you were so upset by General Oglethorpe
>> and the Battle of Bloody Marsh, Doug, but I will remind
>> you that it took place after Jerkins carted his ear-in-a-jar
>> up to the British Parliment and got Walpole to declare
>> the Ear War. Had the fortunes of war fallen differently,
>> why, you would be walking the picturesque calles de
>> Neuvo Atlanta, capitol of Las Floridas del Norte, while
>> avoiding the camera-toting USian tourists in their garish
>> shirts and plastic flip-flops...
>>
>>    I would love to "kick around" the causes of the
>> five-day "Football War" with you, Doug, but I think
>> that it breaks the tenuous chain that links Jenkins' ear
>> to a wet meteorite in a moat surrounded by mocking
>> Frenchmen!
>>
>>
>> Sterling K. Webb
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------
>> And Bill just summed it up in three sentences better
>> than either of us, I think...
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "MexicoDoug" <MexicoDoug at aim.com>
>> To: "Sterling K. Webb" <sterling_k_webb at sbcglobal.net>
>> Cc: <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
>> Sent: Saturday, November 25, 2006 8:56 PM
>> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite novels -gifts II
>>
>>
>>> Sterling wrote:
>>> "1739-1740 War of Jenkins' Ear"
>>> "And [the USA's] certainly never managed to have a war as magnificently
>>> named as "The War of Jenkins' Ear"! Now, that's how to name a war! 
>>> Clear,
>
>>> concise, and everybody knows exactly what it's all about."
>>>
>>> Hey Sterling,
>>>
>>> Hah! remember studies in Western Civ - between Physics and philosophy
>>> class :-) -, really, the USA has darn well so managed to have a war
>>> equally magnificient in name as the "War of Jenkin's Ear".
>>>
>>> It was called "The War of Jenkin's Ear"; Same Jenkins - and it wasn't
>>> Jenkin's other ear.  Don't forget that Jenkin's ear was supposedly
>>> severed in the Americas, and he was as English as George Washington at
>>> the time. So I'd Argue that not only did the Americans participate in
>>> that war - they also started it.  Not to mention the USA started the
>>> funiest named war of all: The "Quasi-War" as thanks to the French right
>>> after the French supported the American Independence effort.
>>>
>>> That particular Jenkin's Ear war in the 1740's is actually the same war
>>> that was contracted by the European continent and spread to Bohemia and
>>> resulted in the French tossing the Elbogen Iron meteorite down the to 
>>> the
>
>>> bottom of the Bohemian well where it rusted for 40 years.  It was a 
>>> small
>
>>> world back then, too.  In the USA, in the great American State of
>>> Georgia, the military general who founded Georgia wasted no time to
>>> marshal his proud Savannah compatriots and adventurous Charlestonians 
>>> out
>
>>> of South Carolina to pillage everything from Jacksonville, Florida to 
>>> St.
>
>>> Augustine, and that was only openers.
>>>
>>> Oh the United States has had oogles more practically nameless wars than
>>> you give it credit for in those years.  They don't Google easily out of 
>>> a
>
>>> database like your nice European ones, but they were bloodier if Indians
>>> are men considered equal in the eyes of the Creator.  You've got to
>>> consider that in Europe all those wars were spread among 20-30 
>>> countries.
>
>>> How many Indian real nations do you think the singular USA trounced in a
>>> religious ferver to achieve its destiny?  The USA is a nation that was
>>> perpetually at war on its own and its extended frontiers.  There are 
>>> more
>
>>> Indian wars alone, than Indian nations that yielded in defeat against 
>>> the
>
>>> cleansing of the continent from Atlantic to Pacific.  Take Florida, 
>>> which
>
>>> heaped war upon wars, genocide and forced relocation.  Or maybe
>>> Missouri - if the Indians had caught on quicker, you might be living in 
>>> a
>
>>> teepee today, or at least your neighbor  :-)
>>>
>>> As for the lack of colorful names of wars in the USA even without
>>> considering who started the War of Jenkin's Ear, does Europe have a
>>> "Battle of Little Bighorn", which is a battle the war easily can assume
>>> for the name, and really was the fight leading to the demise of a race 
>>> of
>
>>> people? If that isn't enough, how about the Gipper's "Star Wars", who 
>>> has
>
>>> one of those programs besides George Lucas?  And I am convinced that the
>>> US participated as a silent partner in the infamous "Football War," as
>>> well...
>>>
>>> Best wishes, Doug
>>> (no slights to any nation, no offense; we are who we are and I can live
>>> with that just fine, until someone else tosses a spectacular iron in a
>>> well to fester.  Guess the Evian was too depleted in minerals for their
>>> taste)
>>>
>>>
>>> thread truncated...
>>
>>
>>
>
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