[meteorite-list] Meteorite novels -gifts II

[MexicoDoug]

Bucklebo Martin, thanks for the kind comments  -- I re-read my post,
your words and by all means did take one comment very much to heart.
I'm guilty for not giving further consideration to other meteoritically
interested cultures between those Germanic and ancients.  I think Ed
would be the better expert in that department on this side of the
Atlantic. You speak of the Aztecs as a culture with as rich of a
treatment of things meteoritic as the medieval traditions in your lands...
I'd like to know more about that!

I'd be interested in knowing what meteorites the Aztecs venerated, feared,
deified, or imbued with magical qualities.  Are you perhaps thinking of
Xocotl the Aztec god of fire and Dark and occult side of planet Venus?  I
think he was more likey born spewn from a volcano, of which there are many
in his territory, or as legend goes, a ball of feathers fell in a temple his
virgin mother then bore him and others.  So Xocotl's mother may have been
fertilized by a meteorite in a stretch of faith (the feathers could be
thought of as cometary)...but these are much further musings than others
I've made:-)

Maybe your reference is meant to consider the over 1.5 ton Casas Grandes
mummified Iron meteorite found in the ruins of the temple of a mysterious
peoples of Mexico and carted out to Philadelphia, USA.  I say mysterious
peoples as I don't think you can call them Aztecs with certainty, and they
may actually be somewhat Navajo.  Unfortunately, the information on that
culture is so scant, circumstantial and too inconclusive.  But the Casas
Grandes meteorite had fallen tens of thousands of years before that region
was populated.  Thus, at best, one can imagine that it was appreciated for
its heft and unique nearly indestructable properties.

The reason I'm not sure we can call that culture Aztec, is because the
business end of the great Aztec empire was generally disconnected and
geographically no where near the southern limits of that mysterious culture,
to make tribute payments to the empire.  In fact, it seems to just
mysteroiusly vanished without battle before the Spanish first appeared
anywhere on the scene.  There is contentious speculaion that that particular
culture was from northern New Mexico near Colorado, and Ed may be able to
add more on that subject.  It seems to me they were their own independent
culture eventually centered in Paquime, Chihuahua, very close to El Paso
Texas, where the meteorite was dug up.  Hopefully we can learn
more, but anything new will be an uphill battle the way the evidence is so
limited and thus dominated more by speculations.  I am not aware of too much
shared divinities as evidence of closeness between frescos of Aztecs and 
this
culture though a minimal amount is no doubt in-common.

The the next meteoritic thing in my neck of the desert, sitting above the
northern tip of Mesoamerica, I can mention are the few tektites found way
down in the ancient Mayan city of Tikal - but that would be in Guatemala
already.  These unique chards which are mysteries themselves as no more
paired have been found after extensive scientific field work and study, and
they are generally Chicxulub era mintage.

What surprises me, is not the great deal of evidence of meteorites in the
Aztec and Mayan cities, but rather the lack of it.  I really would have
thought more references, stone monuments and mozaics, carvings could
have been passed along.  We're talking about a culture with debatably
as sophistiated astronomers and celestial timekeepers rivaling the
Europeans and Arabs during periods in their history.  I'd be very
interested to be reminded if I have missed any mythology here even
with the destruction here that has ensued there has been a great deal
of stoneworks preserved and I am unaware of meteorites and comets
showing on any of them despite the observatories and sophistication.

Martin, I appreciate your kind humility regarding the historical record of
Germanic accomplishments.  I wasn't referring to your Grimms' tale, but
rather the Grimms' "Star Money" which I posted the other day.  On the other
hand the accomplishments of Chinese, Arab, and Japanese, among others
certainly survived in some shapes and forms and deserve a more important
mention than I foolishly brushed by at 4:00 AM.  I think though you've
assumed a bit too much about my thoughts of rites and legend and today's
Germany as a nation.  My use of German- and Germanic was intended to cover
everyone from King Arthur to the Vikings, I hope Gauls (not sure are they
Germanic?), as well as the Barvarians...Am I wrong with this?  The qualities
of these peoples and their attraction to these metals for weapons, Excalibur
itself I mentioned, the sword legend would have pulled from a stone...etc...
Perhaps the Romans with the push for de-paganization most effectively
stiffled throughout the empire idolization of metals and weapons and that is
the simple reason - I don't know - that sounds like an Ed question..

But, since you mention from the enlightenment to Chladni's time for things
meteoritic, I'd say be careful not to be a fish in a fishbowl who doesn't
appreciate the water that surrounds him as we thirsty and envious cats are
looking in with our saucery eyes for a bite to eat.  Take explorers as
recent as Baron Alexander von Humboldt, who I think recovered
meteoritical iron originally from Chupaderos Mexico most probably a few
 short months _before_ the French fall in L'Aigle reached him.

Then, he went to visit his good friend Thomas Jefferson in Washington for
several weeks they managed to socialize many, many stimulating hours
their mutual satisfaction, and I fully suspect that Jefferson would have 
been
 given the opportunity to see this, after their extensive scientific and 
social
discussions.  Interestingly, L'Aigle must have been old news to Baron von
Humboldt once he traveled from Mexico to Washington DC, and Humboldt
was certainly up on the geological sciences from France (as a matter of fact
he and Jefferson even corresponded in French on ocassion). This puts a
different perspective entirely on Jefferson's famous satirical Yankee
comments, especially knowing the master politician and skilled manipulator
of the press in the new anarchy called representative democracy he
delighted in.  The Secretary of State had to offer the Baron a visa and 
permit
to carry many scientific samplings from Latin America,  Any more info you
might have here? Would this have been discussed?  Was the iron meteorite
actually collected in 1803 by Humboldt, part of the bill of lading, or did 
it
somehow get into his possession at a later date??  What was it initially
thought to be before further studies back home in Germany? These are
burning questions.  Humboldt helped Jefferson enough to plan together
the expedition for the Lousiana Purchase, and how to collect, I wonder if
they corresponded in 1807 about the Weston fall?

I even live near a nice street named after Humboldt in Mexico.   Less than
five short years in Latin America...the records of his 12 months of travels
throughout Mexico are no doubt archived with great precision somewhere in
Berlin and in scattered reprints in Mexico.  Which street in Munich is named
after a Mexican explorer :-) ?

Best wishes, Doug


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Martin Altmann" <altmann at meteorite-martin.de>
To: "'MexicoDoug'" <MexicoDoug at aim.com>;
<meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
Sent: Monday, November 27, 2006 7:33 AM
Subject: AW: [meteorite-list] Meteorite novels -gifts II


Oops Doug,

Thou shalt not over-interpret.
I can't find any increased interest in nor any cultural reception of
meteorites in German history, transcending those in other countries.
Meteorites were vulgar superstition, in best case they were kept in cabinets
as curiosities (and later after Enlightment thrown to trash).
In the Grimm collection of folk tales, the Elbogen chunk isn't mentioned as
felt from sky and it's only one story of a metamorphosis of many others (in
this case an addendum of the tale, where some dwarves were turned into
stones).
Nor aren't there many stones left from pre-1800, nor was meteoritics a
monopole of german scientists. There were many more from French, Poland,
Russia...
And if you want to ride the nationalistic horse, "Chladni" is a Slovak (or
was it Slovene name), hehe.
Science always was international, always. Remember the times of the islamic
occupation in Spain, where for centuries people bashed their heads in, but
on the other hand, the Islamic scientists were authorities in the christian
literature like the old Greeks and the Church Fathers.

Perhaps a difference is, that Chladni collected reports from old falls,
naturally a lot from German sources too, but I'm sure, that if one would
study the chronicles in other languages and countries, there are also a lot
to be found. (recently someone sent me a cool fireball report from a local
Church's chronicle from 17th century).

And if you refer to the Ensisheim stone, remember the pamphlets following
the fall, where that fall was taken for an evil omen.
Thus following the hysterical tradition, that all uncommon phenomena in
nature would be bad signs of God's wrath - and in this respect, Europe is
quite unique, because, as far as I know, in all other cultures, where
meteorites are mentioned (or found), meteorites never had bad connotations.

" and that Generally that Germans attributed mystical
powers to meteorites like no other culture since the ancients".

See above and certainly not: Indonesia, Mongolia, Japan, the Inuit, the
American Indians, for the Aztecs, Inka ect, you have to look, Arabia and so
on I guess quite everywhere meteorites were venerated or at least used for
tools or jewellery. Would be a nice new thread!

Has anyone pictures of the bracelets of meteoritic iron from 7th-5th century
b.C. in the museum of Czestochowa Rakow in Poland, Marcin?

Eh and Doug, there wasn't any German national "identity" until 19th century.
And go a little bit back, Charlemagne, were where there the French, where
the Germans? It was always multi-ethnical. The racism, if I let the history
of colonisation aside and the exaggerated nationalism was rather an
invention of the 19th century. And thus I guess Sterling and me didn't want
to depress you, as there is hope, for at least some parts on the globe.
Meanwhile we are living in a much more communicative, mobile (and
hedonistic?) world, in Europe people remember the high price they had to pay
for nationalistic insanity, a little bit bad is, that the principle of Cold
War had worked well...
At least Doug, the preconditions are somewhat better, than they were ever
before.

Let's have new thread. Pre A.D. 1800 meteoritics!
Dirk tell us about Asia!
Norbert, Australia?
Marie-Pelé France?
Serguej, Russia?
Andrzej Poland.
Rob, da Commonwealth?
Christian K&K meteorites.
Manjoi - India!
Joern Germany.
Africa?
Doug - Middle America
And so on!

Buckleboo!
Martin








-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com
[mailto:meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von
MexicoDoug
Gesendet: Montag, 27. November 2006 11:54
An: Sterling K. Webb
Cc: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com
Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite novels -gifts II

Hi Sterling,

1-The fact that the French army wanted to enrage the Bohemians by tossing
the Elbogen iron meteorite in the well is indisputable.  This meteorite is
Grade A Prime cultural heritage for Bohemia where many ethnic Germans lived
and was ethnically a contested territory in my understanding.  The French
actions were part of the hostilities kicked off by the War of Jenkins' Ear
which morphed into that of Austrian Succession there.  The exciting point
being that Germans/Bohemians had a cultural appreciation of meteorites which

truly raptures my imagination with pride, cultural curiousity and a transfer

of a certain degree of magic in my mind's eye, due to my own fascination
with steel from space.

2- My mention of the then Governer of Georgia, Gen. Oglethorpe's bellicose
expedition of Georgians and Carolinians was to bring to your attention this
large American campaign in the War of Jenkins' Ear, intended to correct your

statement that Americans never had the odd pleasure of partaking in that
euphonious war (Soundly put!).

Nothing much I can do about wars despite my heart's desires, other than hope

I would not be called to participate in them.  I really have absolutely no
opinions or desire to think about human intraspecies' inhumanity.

I'll tender a request for a favor that my kindly hijacked thread be returned

to romantic, fantasy and other fictional books on meteorites.  I have to
admit to believing that anything goes in a discussion group, but was unhappy

that a thread on romantic and adventure novels with meteorites in their
plots turned into a discussion of how Europe had more and longer wars than
the USA. :-( !!!!!

.  ... to imagine the relationship between Caledfwlch, Gram, Hrunting,
Naegling, the Magical Giant Sword that slew Grendel's mother, so difficult
to hoist or lift up is a recurring theme, and meteorites, which held a
special fascination in Germanic cultures and craftmanships is very amazing,
though.  The stone Ensisheim, which fell in German territory at the time was

recognized by the German Emperor in 1492 to have come from the sky, and
ordered conserved thanks to him.  It is interesting that the "civilized
world" didn't really "accept" that rock fell from space until L'Aigle
pummeled the last holdouts in France more than 300 years later, like a
thunder fromThor's hammer.  With the greatest respect to France, who seem to

have been ahead of the Americans (one can easily imagine that the Americans
followed the French lead), I believe the Franco-Germanic relationship
strongly colored the French acceptance of meteoritical phenomena and gets to

the heart of meteorite status in the milieu.  I.e., I bet in the 1740's part

of the reason the Elbogen meteorite got such harsh treatment was due to the
memory of Ensisheim having been declared a favorable German icon to unite in

the war against France, and that Generally that Germans attributed mystical
powers to meteorites like no other culture since the ancients.  I think the
French were strongly influenced by the widespread meteorite reverance
thoughout Germanic cultures (take Grimms' tales and Martin's stories of the
converted burgrave on Elbogen, and German fascination with hammers, axes and

metal in general and a its possible relationship to meteoritic iron), which
provided resistance to recognizing that meteorites really did come from
heaven as their competing Germanic neighbors believed...

Best wishes,
Doug