[meteorite-list] Meteorite novels -gifts II

[E.P. Grondine]

Hi Doug, list - 

If you're trying to get a grasp on different peoples
attitudes towards meteorites, you have to go back and
examine the impact events which affected them.

For the Germanic peoples, the Kali impact appears to
have been a major influence.

For the areas further west, formerly part of the Roman
Empire, pretty much all impact lore was first
suppresed with the establishment of the Empire, when
the Etruscan   religious institutions associated with
the Republic were suppressed.  Later, the Church
pretty much enforced Platonic doctrine, in which
meteorites were suppressed, as they would show a less
than perfect creation.

The French lead in modern meteoritics may probably
best be viewed as a reflection of their attempts to
lessen the power of the Church in their lives.

As far as colonial American (English) attitudes went,
you need to consider Newton as "platonic" to some
degree.  Meteorites don't fit into Newton's
"clockwork" universe, and thus we have Jefferson's
famous statement. 

Where this affected me was in the lack of colonial
reporting on Native American attitudes.  So far, and
please don't ask me for the dead citation on this, as
it would take several hours to find, Mooney (1890's)
reported on the Cherokee trade in meteorites, and that
the Cherokee generally valued them like money for
trade.  The list knows of the excavated meteorites,
and I can tell you that they generally have religious
use by the peoples. 

In closing, I would also like to thank Piper Holier
for his trade of the Canyon Diablo for the copy of
"Man and Impact in the Americas", (now available
through amazon.com).  It would be nice if it were
possible to make North American irons available, but
the need for religious items to be acquired by trade
makes this difficult.  Let me close this note by
stating that your North American iron meteorites will
fetch extremely good value in handcrafted art if
traded at powwow, particularly if they are prepared
for fire starting or as mirrored surfaces. 

good hunting,
Ed


--- MexicoDoug <MexicoDoug at aim.com> wrote:

> Hi Sterling,
> 
> 1-The fact that the French army wanted to enrage the
> Bohemians by tossing 
> the Elbogen iron meteorite in the well is
> indisputable.  This meteorite is 
> Grade A Prime cultural heritage for Bohemia where
> many ethnic Germans lived 
> and was ethnically a contested territory in my
> understanding.  The French 
> actions were part of the hostilities kicked off by
> the War of Jenkins' Ear 
> which morphed into that of Austrian Succession
> there.  The exciting point 
> being that Germans/Bohemians had a cultural
> appreciation of meteorites which 
> truly raptures my imagination with pride, cultural
> curiousity and a transfer 
> of a certain degree of magic in my mind's eye, due
> to my own fascination 
> with steel from space.
> 
> 2- My mention of the then Governer of Georgia, Gen.
> Oglethorpe's bellicose 
> expedition of Georgians and Carolinians was to bring
> to your attention this 
> large American campaign in the War of Jenkins' Ear,
> intended to correct your 
> statement that Americans never had the odd pleasure
> of partaking in that 
> euphonious war (Soundly put!).
> 
> Nothing much I can do about wars despite my heart's
> desires, other than hope 
> I would not be called to participate in them.  I
> really have absolutely no 
> opinions or desire to think about human
> intraspecies' inhumanity.
> 
> I'll tender a request for a favor that my kindly
> hijacked thread be returned 
> to romantic, fantasy and other fictional books on
> meteorites.  I have to 
> admit to believing that anything goes in a
> discussion group, but was unhappy 
> that a thread on romantic and adventure novels with
> meteorites in their 
> plots turned into a discussion of how Europe had
> more and longer wars than 
> the USA. :-( !!!!!
> 
> .  ... to imagine the relationship between
> Caledfwlch, Gram, Hrunting, 
> Naegling, the Magical Giant Sword that slew
> Grendel's mother, so difficult 
> to hoist or lift up is a recurring theme, and
> meteorites, which held a 
> special fascination in Germanic cultures and
> craftmanships is very amazing, 
> though.  The stone Ensisheim, which fell in German
> territory at the time was 
> recognized by the German Emperor in 1492 to have
> come from the sky, and 
> ordered conserved thanks to him.  It is interesting
> that the "civilized 
> world" didn't really "accept" that rock fell from
> space until L'Aigle 
> pummeled the last holdouts in France more than 300
> years later, like a 
> thunder fromThor's hammer.  With the greatest
> respect to France, who seem to 
> have been ahead of the Americans (one can easily
> imagine that the Americans 
> followed the French lead), I believe the
> Franco-Germanic relationship 
> strongly colored the French acceptance of
> meteoritical phenomena and gets to 
> the heart of meteorite status in the milieu.  I.e.,
> I bet in the 1740's part 
> of the reason the Elbogen meteorite got such harsh
> treatment was due to the 
> memory of Ensisheim having been declared a favorable
> German icon to unite in 
> the war against France, and that Generally that
> Germans attributed mystical 
> powers to meteorites like no other culture since the
> ancients.  I think the 
> French were strongly influenced by the widespread
> meteorite reverance 
> thoughout Germanic cultures (take Grimms' tales and
> Martin's stories of the 
> converted burgrave on Elbogen, and German
> fascination with hammers, axes and 
> metal in general and a its possible relationship to
> meteoritic iron), which 
> provided resistance to recognizing that meteorites
> really did come from 
> heaven as their competing Germanic neighbors
> believed...
> 
> Best wishes,
> Doug
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Sterling K. Webb"
> <sterling_k_webb at sbcglobal.net>
> To: "Meteorite List"
> <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
> Cc: "MexicoDoug" <MexicoDoug at aim.com>; "Martin
> Altmann" 
> <Altmann at Meteorite-Martin.de>
> Sent: Sunday, November 26, 2006 9:04 PM
> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite novels
> -gifts II
> 
> 
> > Hi, Doug, Martin, List,
> >
> >    Operating on the principle that the longer I
> talk,
> > the more likely my chance to really annoy someone
> > becomes, I snipped a lot of sentences out of what
> > I originally wrote.
> >
> >    The history of the USA up until 1900-1910 is
> best
> > described as a kind of "ongoing conflict,"
> somewhat
> > short of formal war. I was going to say that, so
> no
> > disagreement there. In fact, the history of most
> nations
> > can be so described with some accuracy.
> >
> >    Even with Martin's addition of a few hundred
> more
> > wars for Europe, there's a background of conflict
> that
> > generates them. The Serbian obsession with Kosovo,
> > its ancient "homeland," dates from a conquest late
> in
> > the first millennium AD of the people who still
> live there,
> > the Illyrians, or rather their descendents, who
> were there
> > before the first millennium BC, which makes the
> Serbian
> > "historical" claim look a little silly.
> >
> >    But these ethnic histories solve nothing; one
> has only
> > to look at the Middle East to have that
> demonstrated.
> > Such arguments over who is exclusively entitled to
> the
> > "land" are endless, unending, and productive of
> nothing
> > but carnage, even between folks as completely and
> > totally indistinguishable as two Irishmen.
> >
> >    United Statesians (so as to avoid the
> over-broad usage
> > of "Americans") mostly have what is so often
> called a
> > "naive" view: "Why doesn't everybody just forget
> about
> > settling the score for the past and try to work on
> solving
> > the problems that exist NOW?"
> >
> >    The scorn of the sophisticated not
> withstanding, there
> > is a another name for this: SANITY. If the price
> of this
> > mental health is to be achieved by, say, modern
> Europeans,
> > acting as if THEY never had a war, being morally
> superior
> > to those so backward as to get stuck in conflicts,
> well,
> > sanity is worth that. That IS the idea -- to dump
> the past.
> > "History," said James Joyce a century ago, "is a
> nightmare
> > I'm trying to wake up from."
> >
> >> does Europe have a "Battle of Little Bighorn",
> which...
> >> was the fight leading to the demise of a race of
> people?
> >
> >    Duh. Yeah! And the Sioux (and all the other
> tribes
> > that participated in an INDIAN victory there)
> still exist,
> > no thanks to General Custer, just as Jews still
> exist, no
> > thanks to... We weren't going to drag up the past,
> > were we?
> >
> >> if the Indians had caught on quicker...
> >
> >    American natives caught on right away. They
> each
> > and all sat in council about what to do about the
> odd
> > newcomers from the very year they first showed up!
> > Every strategy you can imagine was tried. It's
> common-
> > place to present these centuries of native
> statecraft as
> > if they all sat there like idiots until the late
> 1800's, but
> > that notion is what is really demeaning. A delay
> of a
> > potential annihilation for centuries is a major
> achievement;
> > there are innumerable spots around the globe where
> > indigenous peoples have been destroyed in a decade
> > or three. As for uniting scores, even hundreds, of
> > nations with no common language, belief, or
> culture,
> > ask Tecumseh about how that worked out...
> >
> >    The real "war" was epidemiological. The "Black
> > Death" made its way into North America ahead of
> the
> > Europeans, in the 15th century, and was followed
> > shortly by a flood of new European diseases in the
> > next century. Europeans, in person, were entering
> > devastated and de-populated lands everywhere in
> > the "New World," north and south. Not that they
> > weren't trying to kill the locals, just that their
> efforts
> > were puny compared to what the microbes (whose
> > existence both sides were unaware of)
> accomplished.
> > It's hard to slow down an invasion when your own
> > population is reduced by up to 90%!
> >
> >    I'm sorry you were so upset by General
> Oglethorpe
> > and the Battle of Bloody Marsh, Doug, but I will
> remind
> > you that it took place after Jerkins carted his
> ear-in-a-jar
> > up to the British Parliment and got Walpole to
> declare
> > the Ear War. Had the fortunes of war fallen
> differently,
> > why, you would be walking the picturesque calles
> de
> > Neuvo Atlanta, capitol of Las Floridas del Norte,
> while
> > avoiding the camera-toting USian tourists in their
> garish
> > shirts and plastic flip-flops...
> >
> >    I would love to "kick around" the causes of the
> > five-day "Football War" with you, Doug, but I
> think
> > that it breaks the tenuous chain that links
> Jenkins' ear
> > to a wet meteorite in a moat surrounded by mocking
> > Frenchmen!
> >
> >
> > Sterling K. Webb
> >
>
------------------------------------------------------------------
> > And Bill just summed it up in three sentences
> better
> > than either of us, I think...
> >
>
------------------------------------------------------------------
> > ----- Original Message ----- 
> > From: "MexicoDoug" <MexicoDoug at aim.com>
> > To: "Sterling K. Webb"
> <sterling_k_webb at sbcglobal.net>
> > Cc: <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
> > Sent: Saturday, November 25, 2006 8:56 PM
> > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite novels
> -gifts II
> >
> >
> >> Sterling wrote:
> >> "1739-1740 War of Jenkins' Ear"
> >> "And [the USA's] certainly never managed to have
> a war as magnificently 
> >> named as "The War of Jenkins' Ear"! Now, that's
> how to name a war! Clear, 
> >> concise, and everybody knows exactly what it's
> all about."
> >>
> >> Hey Sterling,
> >>
> >> Hah! remember studies in Western Civ - between
> Physics and philosophy 
> >> class :-) -, really, the USA has darn well so
> managed to have a war 
> >> equally magnificient in name as the "War of
> Jenkin's Ear".
> >>
> >> It was called "The War of Jenkin's Ear"; Same
> Jenkins - and it wasn't 
> >> Jenkin's other ear.  Don't forget that Jenkin's
> ear was supposedly 
> >> severed in the Americas, and he was as English as
> George Washington at 
> >> the time. So I'd Argue that not only did the
> Americans participate in 
> >> that war - they also started it.  Not to mention
> the USA started the 
> >> funiest named war of all: The "Quasi-War" as
> thanks to the French right 
> >> after the French supported the American
> Independence effort.
> >>
> >> That particular Jenkin's Ear war in the 1740's is
> actually the same war 
> >> that was contracted by the European continent and
> spread to Bohemia and 
> >> resulted in the French tossing the Elbogen Iron
> meteorite down the to the 
> >> bottom of the Bohemian well where it rusted for
> 40 years.  It was a small 
> >> world back then, too.  In the USA, in the great
> American State of 
> >> Georgia, the military general who founded Georgia
> wasted no time to 
> >> marshal his proud Savannah compatriots and
> adventurous Charlestonians out 
> >> of South Carolina to pillage everything from
> Jacksonville, Florida to St. 
> >> Augustine, and that was only openers.
> >>
> >> Oh the United States has had oogles more
> practically nameless wars than 
> >> you give it credit for in those years.  They
> don't Google easily out of a 
> >> database like your nice European ones, but they
> were bloodier if Indians 
> >> are men considered equal in the eyes of the
> Creator.  You've got to 
> >> consider that in Europe all those wars were
> spread among 20-30 countries. 
> >> How many Indian real nations do you think the
> singular USA trounced in a 
> >> religious ferver to achieve its destiny?  The USA
> is a nation that was 
> >> perpetually at war on its own and its extended
> frontiers.  There are more 
> >> Indian wars alone, than Indian nations that
> yielded in defeat against the 
> >> cleansing of the continent from Atlantic to
> Pacific.  Take Florida, which 
> >> heaped war upon wars, genocide and forced
> relocation.  Or maybe 
> >> Missouri - if the Indians had caught on quicker,
> you might be living in a 
> >> teepee today, or at least your neighbor  :-)
> >>
> >> As for the lack of colorful names of wars in the
> USA even without 
> >> considering who started the War of Jenkin's Ear,
> does Europe have a 
> >> "Battle of Little Bighorn", which is a battle the
> war easily can assume 
> >> for the name, and really was the fight leading to
> the demise of a race of 
> >> people? If that isn't enough, how about the
> Gipper's "Star Wars", who has 
> >> one of those programs besides George Lucas?  And
> I am convinced that the 
> >> US participated as a silent partner in the
> infamous "Football War," as 
> >> well...
> >>
> >> Best wishes, Doug
> >> (no slights to any nation, no offense; we are who
> we are and I can live 
> >> with that just fine, until someone else tosses a
> spectacular iron in a 
> >> well to fester.  Guess the Evian was too depleted
> in minerals for their 
> >> taste)
> >>
> >>
> >> thread truncated...
> >
> >
> > 
> 
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