[meteorite-list] Was: Meteorite novels -gifts II New Topics title- Meteorites and Archaeology
drtanuki
drtanuki at yahoo.com
Tue Nov 28 01:21:20 EST 2006
Dear Doug,
You mentioned the Navajo. The Dene (Navajo) didn`t
arrive New Mexico and the American Southwest until
around 1500AD; and it has been proposed that the
demise of the Puebloan (Casas Grande) culture MAY have
been contributed to by their arrival.
http://www.lapahie.com/Timeline_to_1491.cfm
Casas Grande pre-dates their arrival. You may do a
Web search for more information beyond this link:
http://whc.unesco.org/pg.cfm?cid=31&id_site=560
Best, Dirk...Tokyo
--- MexicoDoug <MexicoDoug at aim.com> wrote:
> Whooooe, Martin, thanks for the kind comments -- I
> re-read my post, your
> words and by all means did take one comment very
> much to heart. I'm guilty
> as charged for not giving further consideration to
> other meteoritically
> interested cultures between those Germanic and
> ancients. I think Ed would
> be the better expert in that department on this side
> of the Atlantic. You
> speak of the Aztecs as a culture with as rich of a
> treatment of things
> meteoritic as the medieval traditions in your
> lands... I'd like to know more
> about that.
>
> I'd be interested in knowing what meteorites the
> Aztecs venerated, feared,
> deified, or imbued with magical qualities. Are you
> perhaps thinking of
> Xocotl the Aztec god of fire and Dark and occult
> side of planet Venus? I
> think he was more likey born spewn from a volcano,
> of which there are many
> in his territory, or as legend goes, a ball of
> feathers fell in a temple his
> virgin mother then bore him and others. So Xocotl's
> mother may have been
> fertilized by a meteorite in a stretch of faith (the
> feathers could be
> thought of as cometary)...but these are much further
> musings than others
> I've made:-)
>
> Maybe your reference is meant to consider the over
> 1.5 ton Casas Grandes
> Iron meteorite mummy found in the ruins of the
> temple of a mysterious
> peoples of Mexico and carted out to Philadelphia,
> USA. I say mysterious
> peoples as I don't think you can call them Aztecs
> with certainty, and they
> may actually be somewhat Navajo. Unfortunately, the
> information on that
> culture is so scant, circumstantial and too
> inconclusive. But the Casas
> Grandes meteorite had fallen tens of thousands of
> years before that region
> was populated. Thus, at best, one can imagine that
> it was appreciated for
> its heft and unique nearly indestructable
> properties.
>
> The reason I'm not sure we can call that culture
> Aztec, is because the
> business end of the great Aztec empire was generally
> disconnected and
> geographically no where near the southern limits of
> that mysterious culture,
> to make tribute payments to the empire. In fact, it
> seems to just
> mysteroiusly vanished without battle before the
> Spanish first appeared
> anywhere on the scene. There is contentious
> speculaion that that particular
> culture was from northern New Mexico near Colorado,
> and Ed may be able to
> add more on that subject. It seems to me they were
> their own independent
> culture eventually centered in Paquimé, Chihuahua,
> very close to El Paso
> TX - Juarez MX, where the meteorite was dug up.
> Hopefully we can learn
> more, but anything new will be an uphill battle the
> way the evidence is so
> limited and thus dominated more by speculations. I
> am not aware of too much
> shared divinity evidence though a minimal amount is
> no doubt common.
>
> The the next meteoritic thing in my neck of the
> desert, sitting above the
> northern tip of Mesoamerica, I can mention are the
> few tektites found way
> down in the ancient Mayan city of Tikal - but that
> would be in Guatemala
> already. These unique chards which are mysteries
> themselves as no more
> paired have been found after extensive scientific
> field work and study, and
> they are generally Chicxulub era mintage.
>
> What surprises me, is not the great deal of evidence
> of meteorites in the
> Aztec and Mayan cities, but rather the lack of it.
> I really would have
> thought more references, stonework or carvings could
> have been passed along.
> We're talking about a culture with debatably
> sophistiated astronomers and
> celestial timekeepers rivaling the Europeans and
> Arabs during periods in
> their history. I'd be very interested to be
> reminded if I have missed any
> mythology here even with the destruction here that
> has ensued there has been
> a great deal of stoneworks preserved and I am
> unaware of meteorites and
> comets showing on any of them despite the
> observatories and sophistication.
>
> Martin, I appreciate your kind humility regarding
> the historical record of
> Germanic accomplishments. I wasn't referring to
> your Grimms' tale, but
> rather the Grimms' "Star Money" which I posted the
> other day. On the other
> hand the accomplishments of Chinese, Arab, and
> Japanese, among others
> certainly survived in some shapes and forms and
> deserve a more important
> mention than I foolishly brushed by at 4:00 AM. I
> think though you've
> assumed a bit too much about my thoughts of rites
> and legend and today's
> Germany as a nation. My use of German- and Germanic
> was intended to cover
> everyone from King Arthur to the Vikings, I hope
> Gauls (not sure are they
> Germanic?), as well as the Barvarians...Am I wrong
> with this? The qualities
> of these peoples and their attraction to these
> metals for weapons, Excalibur
> itself I mentioned, the sword legend would have
> pulled from a stone...etc...
> Perhaps the Romans with the push for de-paganization
> most effectively
> stiffled throughout the empire idolization of metals
> and weapons and that is
> the simple reason - I don't know.
>
> But, since you mention the enlightenment to
> Chladni's time for things
> meteoritic, I'd say be careful not to be a fish in a
> fishbowl who doesn't
> appreciate the water that surrounds him as we
> thirsty and envious cats are
> looking in with our saucery eyes for a bite to eat.
> Take explorers as
> recent as Alexander von Humboldt, who I think
> recovered meteoritical iron
> from Chupaderos MX most probably a few short months
> _before_ the French fall
> in L'Aigle reached him. Then, he went to visit his
> good friend Thomas
> Jefferson in Washington for several weeks they
> managed to socialize many,
> many stimulating hours their mutual satisfaction,
> and I fully suspect that
> Jefferson would have been given the opportunity to
> see this, after their
> extensive scientific and social discussions.
> Interestingly, L'Aigle must
> have been old news to Baron von Humboldt once he
> traveled from Mexico to
> Washington DC, and Humboldt was certainly up on the
> geological sciences from
> France (as a matter of fact he and Jefferson even
> corresponded in French on
> ocassion). This puts a different perspective
> entirely on Jefferson's famous
> satirical Yankee comments, especially knowing the
> master politician and
> skilled manipulator of the press in the new anarchy
> he delighted in. The
> Secretary of State had to offer the Baron a visa and
> permit to carry many
> scientific samplings from Latin America, Any more
> info you might have here?
> Would this have been discussed? Was the iron
> meteorite actually collected
> in 1803 by Humboldt, part of the bill of lading, or
> did it somehow get into
> his possession at a later date?? These are burning
> questions. Humboldt
> helped Jefferson enough to plan together the
> expedition for the Lousiana
> Purchase, and how to collect, I wonder if they
> corresponded in 1807 about
> the Weston fall?
>
> I even live near a nice street named after Humboldt
> in Mexico. Less than
> five short years in Latin America...the records of
> his 12 months of travels
> throughout Mexico are no doubt archived with great
> precision somewhere in
> Berlin and in scattered reprints in Mexico. Which
> street in Munich is named
> after a Mexican explorer :-) ?
>
> Best wishes, Doug
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Martin Altmann" <altmann at meteorite-martin.de>
> To: "'MexicoDoug'" <MexicoDoug at aim.com>;
> <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
> Sent: Monday, November 27, 2006 7:33 AM
> Subject: AW: [meteorite-list] Meteorite novels
> -gifts II
>
>
> Oops Doug,
>
> Thou shalt not over-interpret.
> I can't find any increased interest in nor any
> cultural reception of
> meteorites in German history, transcending those in
> other countries.
> Meteorites were vulgar superstition, in best case
> they were kept in cabinets
> as curiosities (and later after Enlightment thrown
> to trash).
> In the Grimm collection of folk tales, the Elbogen
> chunk isn't mentioned as
> felt from sky and it's only one story of a
> metamorphosis of many others (in
> this case an addendum of the tale, where some
> dwarves were turned into
> stones).
> Nor aren't there many stones left from pre-1800, nor
> was meteoritics a
> monopole of german scientists. There were many more
> from French, Poland,
> Russia...
> And if you want to ride the nationalistic horse,
> "Chladni" is a Slovak (or
> was it Slovene name), hehe.
> Science always was international, always. Remember
> the times of the islamic
> occupation in Spain, where for centuries people
> bashed their heads in, but
> on the other hand, the Islamic scientists were
> authorities in the christian
> literature like the old Greeks and the Church
> Fathers.
>
> Perhaps a difference is, that Chladni collected
> reports from old falls,
> naturally a lot from German sources too, but I'm
> sure, that if one would
> study the chronicles in other languages and
> countries, there are also a lot
> to be found. (recently someone sent me a cool
> fireball report from a local
> Church's chronicle from 17th century).
>
> And if you refer to the Ensisheim stone, remember
> the pamphlets following
> the fall, where that fall was taken for an evil
> omen.
> Thus following the hysterical tradition, that all
> uncommon phenomena in
> nature would be bad signs of God's wrath - and in
> this respect, Europe is
> quite unique, because, as far as I know, in all
> other cultures, where
> meteorites are mentioned (or found), meteorites
> never had bad connotations.
>
> " and that Generally that Germans attributed
> mystical
> powers to meteorites like no other culture since the
> ancients".
>
> See above and certainly not: Indonesia, Mongolia,
> Japan, the Inuit, the
> American Indians, for the Aztecs, Inka ect, you have
> to look, Arabia and so
> on I guess quite everywhere meteorites were
> venerated or at least used for
> tools or jewellery. Would be a nice new thread!
>
> Has anyone pictures of the bracelets of meteoritic
> iron from 7th-5th century
> b.C. in the museum of Czestochowa Rakow in Poland,
> Marcin?
>
> Eh and Doug, there wasn't any German national
> "identity" until 19th century.
> And go a little bit back, Charlemagne, were where
> there the French, where
> the Germans? It was always multi-ethnical. The
> racism, if I let the history
> of colonisation aside and the exaggerated
> nationalism was rather an
> invention of the 19th century. And thus I guess
> Sterling and me didn't want
> to depress you, as there is hope, for at least some
> parts on the globe.
> Meanwhile we are living in a much more
> communicative, mobile (and
> hedonistic?) world, in Europe people remember the
> high price they had to pay
> for nationalistic insanity, a little bit bad is,
> that the principle of Cold
> War had worked well...
> At least Doug, the preconditions are somewhat
> better, than they were ever
> before.
>
> Let's have new thread. Pre A.D. 1800 meteoritics!
> Dirk tell us about Asia!
> Norbert, Australia?
> Marie-Pelé France?
> Serguej, Russia?
> Andrzej Poland.
> Rob, da Commonwealth?
> Christian K&K meteorites.
> Manjoi - India!
> Joern Germany.
> Africa?
> Doug - Middle America
> And so on!
>
> Buckleboo!
> Martin
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
> Von: meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com
> [mailto:meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com]
> Im Auftrag von
> MexicoDoug
> Gesendet: Montag, 27. November 2006 11:54
> An: Sterling K. Webb
> Cc: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com
> Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite novels
> -gifts II
>
> Hi Sterling,
>
> 1-The fact that the French army wanted to enrage the
> Bohemians by tossing
> the Elbogen iron meteorite in the well is
> indisputable. This meteorite is
> Grade A Prime cultural heritage for Bohemia where
> many ethnic Germans lived
> and was ethnically a contested territory in my
> understanding. The French
> actions were part of the hostilities kicked off by
> the War of Jenkins' Ear
> which morphed into that of Austrian Succession
> there. The exciting point
> being that Germans/Bohemians had a cultural
> appreciation of meteorites which
>
> truly raptures my imagination with pride, cultural
> curiousity and a transfer
>
> of a certain degree of magic in my mind's eye, due
> to my own fascination
> with steel from space.
>
> 2- My mention of the then Governer of Georgia, Gen.
> Oglethorpe's bellicose
> expedition of Georgians and Carolinians was to bring
> to your attention this
> large American campaign in the War of Jenkins' Ear,
> intended to correct your
>
> statement that Americans never had the odd pleasure
> of partaking in that
> euphonious war (Soundly put!).
>
> Nothing much I can do about wars despite my heart's
> desires, other than hope
>
> I would not be called to participate in them. I
> really have absolutely no
> opinions or desire to think about human
> intraspecies' inhumanity.
>
> I'll tender a request for a favor that my kindly
> hijacked thread be returned
>
> to romantic, fantasy and other fictional books on
> meteorites. I have to
> admit to believing that anything goes in a
> discussion group, but was unhappy
>
> that a thread on romantic and adventure novels with
> meteorites in their
> plots turned into a discussion of how Europe had
> more and longer wars than
> the USA. :-( !!!!!
>
> . ... to imagine the relationship between
> Caledfwlch, Gram, Hrunting,
> Naegling, the Magical Giant Sword that slew
> Grendel's mother, so difficult
> to hoist or lift up is a recurring theme, and
> meteorites, which held a
> special fascination in Germanic cultures and
> craftmanships is very amazing,
> though. The stone Ensisheim, which fell in German
> territory at the time was
>
> recognized by the German Emperor in 1492 to have
> come from the sky, and
> ordered conserved thanks to him. It is interesting
> that the "civilized
> world" didn't really "accept" that rock fell from
> space until L'Aigle
> pummeled the last holdouts in France more than 300
> years later, like a
> thunder fromThor's hammer. With the greatest
> respect to France, who seem to
>
> have been ahead of the Americans (one can easily
> imagine that the Americans
> followed the French lead), I believe the
> Franco-Germanic relationship
> strongly colored the French acceptance of
> meteoritical phenomena and gets to
>
> the heart of meteorite status in the milieu. I.e.,
> I bet in the 1740's part
>
> of the reason the Elbogen meteorite got such harsh
> treatment was due to the
> memory of Ensisheim having been declared a favorable
> German icon to unite in
>
> the war against France, and that Generally that
> Germans attributed mystical
> powers to meteorites like no other culture since the
> ancients. I think the
> French were strongly influenced by the widespread
> meteorite reverance
> thoughout Germanic cultures (take Grimms' tales and
> Martin's stories of the
> converted burgrave on Elbogen, and German
> fascination with hammers, axes and
>
> metal in general and a its possible relationship to
> meteoritic iron), which
> provided resistance to recognizing that meteorites
> really did come from
> heaven as their competing Germanic neighbors
> believed...
>
> Best wishes,
> Doug
>
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Sterling K. Webb"
> <sterling_k_webb at sbcglobal.net>
> To: "Meteorite List"
> <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
> Cc: "MexicoDoug" <MexicoDoug at aim.com>; "Martin
> Altmann"
> <Altmann at Meteorite-Martin.de>
> Sent: Sunday, November 26, 2006 9:04 PM
> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite novels
> -gifts II
>
>
> > Hi, Doug, Martin, List,
> >
> > Operating on the principle that the longer I
> talk,
> > the more likely my chance to really annoy someone
> > becomes, I snipped a lot of sentences out of what
> > I originally wrote.
> >
> > The history of the USA up until 1900-1910 is
> best
> > described as a kind of "ongoing conflict,"
> somewhat
> > short of formal war. I was going to say that, so
> no
> > disagreement there. In fact, the history of most
> nations
> > can be so described with some accuracy.
> >
> > Even with Martin's addition of a few hundred
> more
> > wars for Europe, there's a background of conflict
> that
> > generates them. The Serbian obsession with Kosovo,
> > its ancient "homeland," dates from a conquest late
> in
> > the first millennium AD of the people who still
> live there,
> > the Illyrians, or rather their descendents, who
> were there
> > before the first millennium BC, which makes the
> Serbian
> > "historical" claim look a little silly.
> >
> > But these ethnic histories solve nothing; one
> has only
> > to look at the Middle East to have that
> demonstrated.
> > Such arguments over who is exclusively entitled to
> the
> > "land" are endless, unending, and productive of
> nothing
> > but carnage, even between folks as completely and
> > totally indistinguishable as two Irishmen.
> >
> > United Statesians (so as to avoid the
> over-broad usage
> > of "Americans") mostly have what is so often
> called a
> > "naive" view: "Why doesn't everybody just forget
> about
> > settling the score for the past and try to work on
> solving
> > the problems that exist NOW?"
> >
> > The scorn of the sophisticated not
> withstanding, there
> > is a another name for this: SANITY. If the price
> of this
> > mental health is to be achieved by, say, modern
> Europeans,
> > acting as if THEY never had a war, being morally
> superior
> > to those so backward as to get stuck in conflicts,
> well,
> > sanity is worth that. That IS the idea -- to dump
> the past.
> > "History," said James Joyce a century ago, "is a
> nightmare
> > I'm trying to wake up from."
> >
> >> does Europe have a "Battle of Little Bighorn",
> which...
> >> was the fight leading to the demise of a race of
> people?
> >
> > Duh. Yeah! And the Sioux (and all the other
> tribes
> > that participated in an INDIAN victory there)
> still exist,
> > no thanks to General Custer, just as Jews still
> exist, no
> > thanks to... We weren't going to drag up the past,
> > were we?
> >
> >> if the Indians had caught on quicker...
> >
> > American natives caught on right away. They
> each
> > and all sat in council about what to do about the
> odd
> > newcomers from the very year they first showed up!
> > Every strategy you can imagine was tried. It's
> common-
> > place to present these centuries of native
> statecraft as
> > if they all sat there like idiots until the late
> 1800's, but
> > that notion is what is really demeaning. A delay
> of a
> > potential annihilation for centuries is a major
> achievement;
> > there are innumerable spots around the globe where
> > indigenous peoples have been destroyed in a decade
> > or three. As for uniting scores, even hundreds, of
> > nations with no common language, belief, or
> culture,
> > ask Tecumseh about how that worked out...
> >
> > The real "war" was epidemiological. The "Black
> > Death" made its way into North America ahead of
> the
> > Europeans, in the 15th century, and was followed
> > shortly by a flood of new European diseases in the
> > next century. Europeans, in person, were entering
> > devastated and de-populated lands everywhere in
> > the "New World," north and south. Not that they
> > weren't trying to kill the locals, just that their
> efforts
> > were puny compared to what the microbes (whose
> > existence both sides were unaware of)
> accomplished.
> > It's hard to slow down an invasion when your own
> > population is reduced by up to 90%!
> >
> > I'm sorry you were so upset by General
> Oglethorpe
> > and the Battle of Bloody Marsh, Doug, but I will
> remind
> > you that it took place after Jerkins carted his
> ear-in-a-jar
> > up to the British Parliment and got Walpole to
> declare
> > the Ear War. Had the fortunes of war fallen
> differently,
> > why, you would be walking the picturesque calles
> de
> > Neuvo Atlanta, capitol of Las Floridas del Norte,
> while
> > avoiding the camera-toting USian tourists in their
> garish
> > shirts and plastic flip-flops...
> >
> > I would love to "kick around" the causes of the
> > five-day "Football War" with you, Doug, but I
> think
> > that it breaks the tenuous chain that links
> Jenkins' ear
> > to a wet meteorite in a moat surrounded by mocking
> > Frenchmen!
> >
> >
> > Sterling K. Webb
> >
>
------------------------------------------------------------------
> > And Bill just summed it up in three sentences
> better
> > than either of us, I think...
> >
>
------------------------------------------------------------------
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "MexicoDoug" <MexicoDoug at aim.com>
> > To: "Sterling K. Webb"
> <sterling_k_webb at sbcglobal.net>
> > Cc: <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
> > Sent: Saturday, November 25, 2006 8:56 PM
> > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite novels
> -gifts II
> >
> >
> >> Sterling wrote:
> >> "1739-1740 War of Jenkins' Ear"
> >> "And [the USA's] certainly never managed to have
> a war as magnificently
> >> named as "The War of Jenkins' Ear"! Now, that's
> how to name a war! Clear,
>
> >> concise, and everybody knows exactly what it's
> all about."
> >>
> >> Hey Sterling,
> >>
> >> Hah! remember studies in Western Civ - between
> Physics and philosophy
> >> class :-) -, really, the USA has darn well so
> managed to have a war
> >> equally magnificient in name as the "War of
> Jenkin's Ear".
> >>
> >> It was called "The War of Jenkin's Ear"; Same
> Jenkins - and it wasn't
> >> Jenkin's other ear. Don't forget that Jenkin's
> ear was supposedly
> >> severed in the Americas, and he was as English as
> George Washington at
> >> the time. So I'd Argue that not only did the
> Americans participate in
> >> that war - they also started it. Not to mention
> the USA started the
> >> funiest named war of all: The "Quasi-War" as
> thanks to the French right
> >> after the French supported the American
> Independence effort.
> >>
> >> That particular Jenkin's Ear war in the 1740's is
> actually the same war
> >> that was contracted by the European continent and
> spread to Bohemia and
> >> resulted in the French tossing the Elbogen Iron
> meteorite down the to the
>
> >> bottom of the Bohemian well where it rusted for
> 40 years. It was a small
>
> >> world back then, too. In the USA, in the great
> American State of
> >> Georgia, the military general who founded Georgia
> wasted no time to
> >> marshal his proud Savannah compatriots and
> adventurous Charlestonians out
>
> >> of South Carolina to pillage everything from
> Jacksonville, Florida to St.
>
> >> Augustine, and that was only openers.
> >>
> >> Oh the United States has had oogles more
> practically nameless wars than
> >> you give it credit for in those years. They
> don't Google easily out of a
>
> >> database like your nice European ones, but they
> were bloodier if Indians
> >> are men considered equal in the eyes of the
> Creator. You've got to
> >> consider that in Europe all those wars were
> spread among 20-30 countries.
>
> >> How many Indian real nations do you think the
> singular USA trounced in a
> >> religious ferver to achieve its destiny? The USA
> is a nation that was
> >> perpetually at war on its own and its extended
> frontiers. There are more
>
> >> Indian wars alone, than Indian nations that
> yielded in defeat against the
>
> >> cleansing of the continent from Atlantic to
> Pacific. Take Florida, which
>
> >> heaped war upon wars, genocide and forced
> relocation. Or maybe
> >> Missouri - if the Indians had caught on quicker,
> you might be living in a
>
> >> teepee today, or at least your neighbor :-)
> >>
> >> As for the lack of colorful names of wars in the
> USA even without
> >> considering who started the War of Jenkin's Ear,
> does Europe have a
> >> "Battle of Little Bighorn", which is a battle the
> war easily can assume
> >> for the name, and really was the fight leading to
> the demise of a race of
>
> >> people? If that isn't enough, how about the
> Gipper's "Star Wars", who has
>
> >> one of those programs besides George Lucas? And
> I am convinced that the
> >> US participated as a silent partner in the
> infamous "Football War," as
> >> well...
> >>
> >> Best wishes, Doug
> >> (no slights to any nation, no offense; we are who
> we are and I can live
> >> with that just fine, until someone else tosses a
> spectacular iron in a
> >> well to fester. Guess the Evian was too depleted
> in minerals for their
> >> taste)
> >>
> >>
> >> thread truncated...
> >
> >
> >
>
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