[meteorite-list] Meteorite novels -gifts II

[MexicoDoug]

Whooooe, Martin, thanks for the kind comments  -- I re-read my post,  your 
words and by all means did take one comment very much to heart.  I'm guilty 
as charged for not giving further consideration to other meteoritically 
interested cultures between those Germanic and ancients.  I think Ed would 
be the better expert in that department on this side of the Atlantic. You 
speak of the Aztecs as a culture with as rich of a treatment of things 
meteoritic as the medieval traditions in your lands... I'd like to know more 
about that.

I'd be interested in knowing what meteorites the Aztecs venerated, feared, 
deified, or imbued with magical qualities.  Are you perhaps thinking of 
Xocotl the Aztec god of fire and Dark and occult side of planet Venus?  I 
think he was more likey born spewn from a volcano, of which there are many 
in his territory, or as legend goes, a ball of feathers fell in a temple his 
virgin mother then bore him and others.  So Xocotl's mother may have been 
fertilized by a meteorite in a stretch of faith (the feathers could be 
thought of as cometary)...but these are much further musings than others 
I've made:-)

Maybe your reference is meant to consider the over 1.5 ton Casas Grandes 
Iron meteorite mummy found in the ruins of the temple of a mysterious 
peoples of Mexico and carted out to Philadelphia, USA.  I say mysterious 
peoples as I don't think you can call them Aztecs with certainty, and they 
may actually be somewhat Navajo.  Unfortunately, the information on that 
culture is so scant, circumstantial and too inconclusive.  But the Casas 
Grandes meteorite had fallen tens of thousands of years before that region 
was populated.  Thus, at best, one can imagine that it was appreciated for 
its heft and unique nearly indestructable properties.

The reason I'm not sure we can call that culture Aztec, is because the 
business end of the great Aztec empire was generally disconnected and 
geographically no where near the southern limits of that mysterious culture, 
to make tribute payments to the empire.  In fact, it seems to just 
mysteroiusly vanished without battle before the Spanish first appeared 
anywhere on the scene.  There is contentious speculaion that that particular 
culture was from northern New Mexico near Colorado, and Ed may be able to 
add more on that subject.  It seems to me they were their own independent 
culture eventually centered in Paquimé, Chihuahua, very close to El Paso 
TX - Juarez MX, where the meteorite was dug up.  Hopefully we can learn 
more, but anything new will be an uphill battle the way the evidence is so 
limited and thus dominated more by speculations.  I am not aware of too much 
shared divinity evidence though a minimal amount is no doubt common.

The the next meteoritic thing in my neck of the desert, sitting above the 
northern tip of Mesoamerica, I can mention are the few tektites found way 
down in the ancient Mayan city of Tikal - but that would be in Guatemala 
already.  These unique chards which are mysteries themselves as no more 
paired have been found after extensive scientific field work and study, and 
they are generally Chicxulub era mintage.

What surprises me, is not the great deal of evidence of meteorites in the 
Aztec and Mayan cities, but rather the lack of it.  I really would have 
thought more references, stonework or carvings could have been passed along. 
We're talking about a culture with debatably sophistiated astronomers and 
celestial timekeepers rivaling the Europeans and Arabs during periods in 
their history.  I'd be very interested to be reminded if I have missed any 
mythology here even with the destruction here that has ensued there has been 
a great deal of stoneworks preserved and I am unaware of meteorites and 
comets showing on any of them despite the observatories and sophistication.

Martin, I appreciate your kind humility regarding the historical record of 
Germanic accomplishments.  I wasn't referring to your Grimms' tale, but 
rather the Grimms' "Star Money" which I posted the other day.  On the other 
hand the accomplishments of Chinese, Arab, and Japanese, among others 
certainly survived in some shapes and forms and deserve a more important 
mention than I foolishly brushed by at 4:00 AM.  I think though you've 
assumed a bit too much about my thoughts of rites and legend and today's 
Germany as a nation.  My use of German- and Germanic was intended to cover 
everyone from King Arthur to the Vikings, I hope Gauls (not sure are they 
Germanic?), as well as the Barvarians...Am I wrong with this?  The qualities 
of these peoples and their attraction to these metals for weapons, Excalibur 
itself I mentioned, the sword legend would have pulled from a stone...etc... 
Perhaps the Romans with the push for de-paganization most effectively 
stiffled throughout the empire idolization of metals and weapons and that is 
the simple reason - I don't know.

But, since you mention the enlightenment to Chladni's time for things 
meteoritic, I'd say be careful not to be a fish in a fishbowl who doesn't 
appreciate the water that surrounds him as we thirsty and envious cats are 
looking in with our saucery eyes for a bite to eat.  Take explorers as 
recent as Alexander von Humboldt, who I think recovered meteoritical iron 
from Chupaderos MX most probably a few short months _before_ the French fall 
in L'Aigle reached him.  Then, he went to visit his good friend Thomas 
Jefferson in Washington for several weeks they managed to socialize many, 
many stimulating hours their mutual satisfaction, and I fully suspect that 
Jefferson would have been given the opportunity to see this, after their 
extensive scientific and social discussions.  Interestingly, L'Aigle must 
have been old news to Baron von Humboldt once he traveled from Mexico to 
Washington DC, and Humboldt was certainly up on the geological sciences from 
France (as a matter of fact he and Jefferson even corresponded in French on 
ocassion). This puts a different perspective entirely on Jefferson's famous 
satirical Yankee comments, especially knowing the master politician and 
skilled manipulator of the press in the new anarchy he delighted in.  The 
Secretary of State had to offer the Baron a visa and permit to carry many 
scientific samplings from Latin America,  Any more info you might have here? 
Would this have been discussed?  Was the iron meteorite actually collected 
in 1803 by Humboldt, part of the bill of lading, or did it somehow get into 
his possession at a later date?? These are burning questions.  Humboldt 
helped Jefferson enough to plan together the expedition for the Lousiana 
Purchase, and how to collect, I wonder if they corresponded in 1807 about 
the Weston fall?

I even live near a nice street named after Humboldt in Mexico.   Less than 
five short years in Latin America...the records of his 12 months of travels 
throughout Mexico are no doubt archived with great precision somewhere in 
Berlin and in scattered reprints in Mexico.  Which street in Munich is named 
after a Mexican explorer :-) ?

Best wishes, Doug




----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Martin Altmann" <altmann at meteorite-martin.de>
To: "'MexicoDoug'" <MexicoDoug at aim.com>; 
<meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
Sent: Monday, November 27, 2006 7:33 AM
Subject: AW: [meteorite-list] Meteorite novels -gifts II


Oops Doug,

Thou shalt not over-interpret.
I can't find any increased interest in nor any cultural reception of
meteorites in German history, transcending those in other countries.
Meteorites were vulgar superstition, in best case they were kept in cabinets
as curiosities (and later after Enlightment thrown to trash).
In the Grimm collection of folk tales, the Elbogen chunk isn't mentioned as
felt from sky and it's only one story of a metamorphosis of many others (in
this case an addendum of the tale, where some dwarves were turned into
stones).
Nor aren't there many stones left from pre-1800, nor was meteoritics a
monopole of german scientists. There were many more from French, Poland,
Russia...
And if you want to ride the nationalistic horse, "Chladni" is a Slovak (or
was it Slovene name), hehe.
Science always was international, always. Remember the times of the islamic
occupation in Spain, where for centuries people bashed their heads in, but
on the other hand, the Islamic scientists were authorities in the christian
literature like the old Greeks and the Church Fathers.

Perhaps a difference is, that Chladni collected reports from old falls,
naturally a lot from German sources too, but I'm sure, that if one would
study the chronicles in other languages and countries, there are also a lot
to be found. (recently someone sent me a cool fireball report from a local
Church's chronicle from 17th century).

And if you refer to the Ensisheim stone, remember the pamphlets following
the fall, where that fall was taken for an evil omen.
Thus following the hysterical tradition, that all uncommon phenomena in
nature would be bad signs of God's wrath - and in this respect, Europe is
quite unique, because, as far as I know, in all other cultures, where
meteorites are mentioned (or found), meteorites never had bad connotations.

" and that Generally that Germans attributed mystical
powers to meteorites like no other culture since the ancients".

See above and certainly not: Indonesia, Mongolia, Japan, the Inuit, the
American Indians, for the Aztecs, Inka ect, you have to look, Arabia and so
on I guess quite everywhere meteorites were venerated or at least used for
tools or jewellery. Would be a nice new thread!

Has anyone pictures of the bracelets of meteoritic iron from 7th-5th century
b.C. in the museum of Czestochowa Rakow in Poland, Marcin?

Eh and Doug, there wasn't any German national "identity" until 19th century.
And go a little bit back, Charlemagne, were where there the French, where
the Germans? It was always multi-ethnical. The racism, if I let the history
of colonisation aside and the exaggerated nationalism was rather an
invention of the 19th century. And thus I guess Sterling and me didn't want
to depress you, as there is hope, for at least some parts on the globe.
Meanwhile we are living in a much more communicative, mobile (and
hedonistic?) world, in Europe people remember the high price they had to pay
for nationalistic insanity, a little bit bad is, that the principle of Cold
War had worked well...
At least Doug, the preconditions are somewhat better, than they were ever
before.

Let's have new thread. Pre A.D. 1800 meteoritics!
Dirk tell us about Asia!
Norbert, Australia?
Marie-Pelé France?
Serguej, Russia?
Andrzej Poland.
Rob, da Commonwealth?
Christian K&K meteorites.
Manjoi - India!
Joern Germany.
Africa?
Doug - Middle America
And so on!

Buckleboo!
Martin








-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com
[mailto:meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von
MexicoDoug
Gesendet: Montag, 27. November 2006 11:54
An: Sterling K. Webb
Cc: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com
Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite novels -gifts II

Hi Sterling,

1-The fact that the French army wanted to enrage the Bohemians by tossing
the Elbogen iron meteorite in the well is indisputable.  This meteorite is
Grade A Prime cultural heritage for Bohemia where many ethnic Germans lived
and was ethnically a contested territory in my understanding.  The French
actions were part of the hostilities kicked off by the War of Jenkins' Ear
which morphed into that of Austrian Succession there.  The exciting point
being that Germans/Bohemians had a cultural appreciation of meteorites which

truly raptures my imagination with pride, cultural curiousity and a transfer

of a certain degree of magic in my mind's eye, due to my own fascination
with steel from space.

2- My mention of the then Governer of Georgia, Gen. Oglethorpe's bellicose
expedition of Georgians and Carolinians was to bring to your attention this
large American campaign in the War of Jenkins' Ear, intended to correct your

statement that Americans never had the odd pleasure of partaking in that
euphonious war (Soundly put!).

Nothing much I can do about wars despite my heart's desires, other than hope

I would not be called to participate in them.  I really have absolutely no
opinions or desire to think about human intraspecies' inhumanity.

I'll tender a request for a favor that my kindly hijacked thread be returned

to romantic, fantasy and other fictional books on meteorites.  I have to
admit to believing that anything goes in a discussion group, but was unhappy

that a thread on romantic and adventure novels with meteorites in their
plots turned into a discussion of how Europe had more and longer wars than
the USA. :-( !!!!!

.  ... to imagine the relationship between Caledfwlch, Gram, Hrunting,
Naegling, the Magical Giant Sword that slew Grendel's mother, so difficult
to hoist or lift up is a recurring theme, and meteorites, which held a
special fascination in Germanic cultures and craftmanships is very amazing,
though.  The stone Ensisheim, which fell in German territory at the time was

recognized by the German Emperor in 1492 to have come from the sky, and
ordered conserved thanks to him.  It is interesting that the "civilized
world" didn't really "accept" that rock fell from space until L'Aigle
pummeled the last holdouts in France more than 300 years later, like a
thunder fromThor's hammer.  With the greatest respect to France, who seem to

have been ahead of the Americans (one can easily imagine that the Americans
followed the French lead), I believe the Franco-Germanic relationship
strongly colored the French acceptance of meteoritical phenomena and gets to

the heart of meteorite status in the milieu.  I.e., I bet in the 1740's part

of the reason the Elbogen meteorite got such harsh treatment was due to the
memory of Ensisheim having been declared a favorable German icon to unite in

the war against France, and that Generally that Germans attributed mystical
powers to meteorites like no other culture since the ancients.  I think the
French were strongly influenced by the widespread meteorite reverance
thoughout Germanic cultures (take Grimms' tales and Martin's stories of the
converted burgrave on Elbogen, and German fascination with hammers, axes and

metal in general and a its possible relationship to meteoritic iron), which
provided resistance to recognizing that meteorites really did come from
heaven as their competing Germanic neighbors believed...

Best wishes,
Doug





----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Sterling K. Webb" <sterling_k_webb at sbcglobal.net>
To: "Meteorite List" <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
Cc: "MexicoDoug" <MexicoDoug at aim.com>; "Martin Altmann"
<Altmann at Meteorite-Martin.de>
Sent: Sunday, November 26, 2006 9:04 PM
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite novels -gifts II


> Hi, Doug, Martin, List,
>
>    Operating on the principle that the longer I talk,
> the more likely my chance to really annoy someone
> becomes, I snipped a lot of sentences out of what
> I originally wrote.
>
>    The history of the USA up until 1900-1910 is best
> described as a kind of "ongoing conflict," somewhat
> short of formal war. I was going to say that, so no
> disagreement there. In fact, the history of most nations
> can be so described with some accuracy.
>
>    Even with Martin's addition of a few hundred more
> wars for Europe, there's a background of conflict that
> generates them. The Serbian obsession with Kosovo,
> its ancient "homeland," dates from a conquest late in
> the first millennium AD of the people who still live there,
> the Illyrians, or rather their descendents, who were there
> before the first millennium BC, which makes the Serbian
> "historical" claim look a little silly.
>
>    But these ethnic histories solve nothing; one has only
> to look at the Middle East to have that demonstrated.
> Such arguments over who is exclusively entitled to the
> "land" are endless, unending, and productive of nothing
> but carnage, even between folks as completely and
> totally indistinguishable as two Irishmen.
>
>    United Statesians (so as to avoid the over-broad usage
> of "Americans") mostly have what is so often called a
> "naive" view: "Why doesn't everybody just forget about
> settling the score for the past and try to work on solving
> the problems that exist NOW?"
>
>    The scorn of the sophisticated not withstanding, there
> is a another name for this: SANITY. If the price of this
> mental health is to be achieved by, say, modern Europeans,
> acting as if THEY never had a war, being morally superior
> to those so backward as to get stuck in conflicts, well,
> sanity is worth that. That IS the idea -- to dump the past.
> "History," said James Joyce a century ago, "is a nightmare
> I'm trying to wake up from."
>
>> does Europe have a "Battle of Little Bighorn", which...
>> was the fight leading to the demise of a race of people?
>
>    Duh. Yeah! And the Sioux (and all the other tribes
> that participated in an INDIAN victory there) still exist,
> no thanks to General Custer, just as Jews still exist, no
> thanks to... We weren't going to drag up the past,
> were we?
>
>> if the Indians had caught on quicker...
>
>    American natives caught on right away. They each
> and all sat in council about what to do about the odd
> newcomers from the very year they first showed up!
> Every strategy you can imagine was tried. It's common-
> place to present these centuries of native statecraft as
> if they all sat there like idiots until the late 1800's, but
> that notion is what is really demeaning. A delay of a
> potential annihilation for centuries is a major achievement;
> there are innumerable spots around the globe where
> indigenous peoples have been destroyed in a decade
> or three. As for uniting scores, even hundreds, of
> nations with no common language, belief, or culture,
> ask Tecumseh about how that worked out...
>
>    The real "war" was epidemiological. The "Black
> Death" made its way into North America ahead of the
> Europeans, in the 15th century, and was followed
> shortly by a flood of new European diseases in the
> next century. Europeans, in person, were entering
> devastated and de-populated lands everywhere in
> the "New World," north and south. Not that they
> weren't trying to kill the locals, just that their efforts
> were puny compared to what the microbes (whose
> existence both sides were unaware of) accomplished.
> It's hard to slow down an invasion when your own
> population is reduced by up to 90%!
>
>    I'm sorry you were so upset by General Oglethorpe
> and the Battle of Bloody Marsh, Doug, but I will remind
> you that it took place after Jerkins carted his ear-in-a-jar
> up to the British Parliment and got Walpole to declare
> the Ear War. Had the fortunes of war fallen differently,
> why, you would be walking the picturesque calles de
> Neuvo Atlanta, capitol of Las Floridas del Norte, while
> avoiding the camera-toting USian tourists in their garish
> shirts and plastic flip-flops...
>
>    I would love to "kick around" the causes of the
> five-day "Football War" with you, Doug, but I think
> that it breaks the tenuous chain that links Jenkins' ear
> to a wet meteorite in a moat surrounded by mocking
> Frenchmen!
>
>
> Sterling K. Webb
> ------------------------------------------------------------------
> And Bill just summed it up in three sentences better
> than either of us, I think...
> ------------------------------------------------------------------
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "MexicoDoug" <MexicoDoug at aim.com>
> To: "Sterling K. Webb" <sterling_k_webb at sbcglobal.net>
> Cc: <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
> Sent: Saturday, November 25, 2006 8:56 PM
> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite novels -gifts II
>
>
>> Sterling wrote:
>> "1739-1740 War of Jenkins' Ear"
>> "And [the USA's] certainly never managed to have a war as magnificently
>> named as "The War of Jenkins' Ear"! Now, that's how to name a war! Clear,

>> concise, and everybody knows exactly what it's all about."
>>
>> Hey Sterling,
>>
>> Hah! remember studies in Western Civ - between Physics and philosophy
>> class :-) -, really, the USA has darn well so managed to have a war
>> equally magnificient in name as the "War of Jenkin's Ear".
>>
>> It was called "The War of Jenkin's Ear"; Same Jenkins - and it wasn't
>> Jenkin's other ear.  Don't forget that Jenkin's ear was supposedly
>> severed in the Americas, and he was as English as George Washington at
>> the time. So I'd Argue that not only did the Americans participate in
>> that war - they also started it.  Not to mention the USA started the
>> funiest named war of all: The "Quasi-War" as thanks to the French right
>> after the French supported the American Independence effort.
>>
>> That particular Jenkin's Ear war in the 1740's is actually the same war
>> that was contracted by the European continent and spread to Bohemia and
>> resulted in the French tossing the Elbogen Iron meteorite down the to the

>> bottom of the Bohemian well where it rusted for 40 years.  It was a small

>> world back then, too.  In the USA, in the great American State of
>> Georgia, the military general who founded Georgia wasted no time to
>> marshal his proud Savannah compatriots and adventurous Charlestonians out

>> of South Carolina to pillage everything from Jacksonville, Florida to St.

>> Augustine, and that was only openers.
>>
>> Oh the United States has had oogles more practically nameless wars than
>> you give it credit for in those years.  They don't Google easily out of a

>> database like your nice European ones, but they were bloodier if Indians
>> are men considered equal in the eyes of the Creator.  You've got to
>> consider that in Europe all those wars were spread among 20-30 countries.

>> How many Indian real nations do you think the singular USA trounced in a
>> religious ferver to achieve its destiny?  The USA is a nation that was
>> perpetually at war on its own and its extended frontiers.  There are more

>> Indian wars alone, than Indian nations that yielded in defeat against the

>> cleansing of the continent from Atlantic to Pacific.  Take Florida, which

>> heaped war upon wars, genocide and forced relocation.  Or maybe
>> Missouri - if the Indians had caught on quicker, you might be living in a

>> teepee today, or at least your neighbor  :-)
>>
>> As for the lack of colorful names of wars in the USA even without
>> considering who started the War of Jenkin's Ear, does Europe have a
>> "Battle of Little Bighorn", which is a battle the war easily can assume
>> for the name, and really was the fight leading to the demise of a race of

>> people? If that isn't enough, how about the Gipper's "Star Wars", who has

>> one of those programs besides George Lucas?  And I am convinced that the
>> US participated as a silent partner in the infamous "Football War," as
>> well...
>>
>> Best wishes, Doug
>> (no slights to any nation, no offense; we are who we are and I can live
>> with that just fine, until someone else tosses a spectacular iron in a
>> well to fester.  Guess the Evian was too depleted in minerals for their
>> taste)
>>
>>
>> thread truncated...
>
>
>

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