[meteorite-list] Meteorite novels -gifts II

[Martin Altmann]

Oops Doug,

Thou shalt not over-interpret.
I can't find any increased interest in nor any cultural reception of
meteorites in German history, transcending those in other countries.
Meteorites were vulgar superstition, in best case they were kept in cabinets
as curiosities (and later after Enlightment thrown to trash).
In the Grimm collection of folk tales, the Elbogen chunk isn't mentioned as
felt from sky and it's only one story of a metamorphosis of many others (in
this case an addendum of the tale, where some dwarves were turned into
stones).
Nor aren't there many stones left from pre-1800, nor was meteoritics a
monopole of german scientists. There were many more from French, Poland,
Russia...
And if you want to ride the nationalistic horse, "Chladni" is a Slovak (or
was it Slovene name), hehe.
Science always was international, always. Remember the times of the islamic
occupation in Spain, where for centuries people bashed their heads in, but
on the other hand, the Islamic scientists were authorities in the christian
literature like the old Greeks and the Church Fathers.

Perhaps a difference is, that Chladni collected reports from old falls,
naturally a lot from German sources too, but I'm sure, that if one would
study the chronicles in other languages and countries, there are also a lot
to be found. (recently someone sent me a cool fireball report from a local
Church's chronicle from 17th century).

And if you refer to the Ensisheim stone, remember the pamphlets following
the fall, where that fall was taken for an evil omen. 
Thus following the hysterical tradition, that all uncommon phenomena in
nature would be bad signs of God's wrath - and in this respect, Europe is
quite unique, because, as far as I know, in all other cultures, where
meteorites are mentioned (or found), meteorites never had bad connotations.

" and that Generally that Germans attributed mystical 
powers to meteorites like no other culture since the ancients".

See above and certainly not: Indonesia, Mongolia, Japan, the Inuit, the
American Indians, for the Aztecs, Inka ect, you have to look, Arabia and so
on I guess quite everywhere meteorites were venerated or at least used for
tools or jewellery. Would be a nice new thread!

Has anyone pictures of the bracelets of meteoritic iron from 7th-5th century
b.C. in the museum of Czestochowa Rakow in Poland, Marcin?

Eh and Doug, there wasn't any German national "identity" until 19th century.
And go a little bit back, Charlemagne, were where there the French, where
the Germans? It was always multi-ethnical. The racism, if I let the history
of colonisation aside and the exaggerated nationalism was rather an
invention of the 19th century. And thus I guess Sterling and me didn't want
to depress you, as there is hope, for at least some parts on the globe.
Meanwhile we are living in a much more communicative, mobile (and
hedonistic?) world, in Europe people remember the high price they had to pay
for nationalistic insanity, a little bit bad is, that the principle of Cold
War had worked well...
At least Doug, the preconditions are somewhat better, than they were ever
before.

Let's have new thread. Pre A.D. 1800 meteoritics!
Dirk tell us about Asia!
Norbert, Australia?
Marie-Pelé France?
Serguej, Russia?
Andrzej Poland.
Rob, da Commonwealth?
Christian K&K meteorites.
Manjoi - India!
Joern Germany.
Africa?
Doug - Middle America
And so on!

Buckleboo!
Martin








-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com
[mailto:meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von
MexicoDoug
Gesendet: Montag, 27. November 2006 11:54
An: Sterling K. Webb
Cc: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com
Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite novels -gifts II

Hi Sterling,

1-The fact that the French army wanted to enrage the Bohemians by tossing 
the Elbogen iron meteorite in the well is indisputable.  This meteorite is 
Grade A Prime cultural heritage for Bohemia where many ethnic Germans lived 
and was ethnically a contested territory in my understanding.  The French 
actions were part of the hostilities kicked off by the War of Jenkins' Ear 
which morphed into that of Austrian Succession there.  The exciting point 
being that Germans/Bohemians had a cultural appreciation of meteorites which

truly raptures my imagination with pride, cultural curiousity and a transfer

of a certain degree of magic in my mind's eye, due to my own fascination 
with steel from space.

2- My mention of the then Governer of Georgia, Gen. Oglethorpe's bellicose 
expedition of Georgians and Carolinians was to bring to your attention this 
large American campaign in the War of Jenkins' Ear, intended to correct your

statement that Americans never had the odd pleasure of partaking in that 
euphonious war (Soundly put!).

Nothing much I can do about wars despite my heart's desires, other than hope

I would not be called to participate in them.  I really have absolutely no 
opinions or desire to think about human intraspecies' inhumanity.

I'll tender a request for a favor that my kindly hijacked thread be returned

to romantic, fantasy and other fictional books on meteorites.  I have to 
admit to believing that anything goes in a discussion group, but was unhappy

that a thread on romantic and adventure novels with meteorites in their 
plots turned into a discussion of how Europe had more and longer wars than 
the USA. :-( !!!!!

.  ... to imagine the relationship between Caledfwlch, Gram, Hrunting, 
Naegling, the Magical Giant Sword that slew Grendel's mother, so difficult 
to hoist or lift up is a recurring theme, and meteorites, which held a 
special fascination in Germanic cultures and craftmanships is very amazing, 
though.  The stone Ensisheim, which fell in German territory at the time was

recognized by the German Emperor in 1492 to have come from the sky, and 
ordered conserved thanks to him.  It is interesting that the "civilized 
world" didn't really "accept" that rock fell from space until L'Aigle 
pummeled the last holdouts in France more than 300 years later, like a 
thunder fromThor's hammer.  With the greatest respect to France, who seem to

have been ahead of the Americans (one can easily imagine that the Americans 
followed the French lead), I believe the Franco-Germanic relationship 
strongly colored the French acceptance of meteoritical phenomena and gets to

the heart of meteorite status in the milieu.  I.e., I bet in the 1740's part

of the reason the Elbogen meteorite got such harsh treatment was due to the 
memory of Ensisheim having been declared a favorable German icon to unite in

the war against France, and that Generally that Germans attributed mystical 
powers to meteorites like no other culture since the ancients.  I think the 
French were strongly influenced by the widespread meteorite reverance 
thoughout Germanic cultures (take Grimms' tales and Martin's stories of the 
converted burgrave on Elbogen, and German fascination with hammers, axes and

metal in general and a its possible relationship to meteoritic iron), which 
provided resistance to recognizing that meteorites really did come from 
heaven as their competing Germanic neighbors believed...

Best wishes,
Doug





----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Sterling K. Webb" <sterling_k_webb at sbcglobal.net>
To: "Meteorite List" <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
Cc: "MexicoDoug" <MexicoDoug at aim.com>; "Martin Altmann" 
<Altmann at Meteorite-Martin.de>
Sent: Sunday, November 26, 2006 9:04 PM
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite novels -gifts II


> Hi, Doug, Martin, List,
>
>    Operating on the principle that the longer I talk,
> the more likely my chance to really annoy someone
> becomes, I snipped a lot of sentences out of what
> I originally wrote.
>
>    The history of the USA up until 1900-1910 is best
> described as a kind of "ongoing conflict," somewhat
> short of formal war. I was going to say that, so no
> disagreement there. In fact, the history of most nations
> can be so described with some accuracy.
>
>    Even with Martin's addition of a few hundred more
> wars for Europe, there's a background of conflict that
> generates them. The Serbian obsession with Kosovo,
> its ancient "homeland," dates from a conquest late in
> the first millennium AD of the people who still live there,
> the Illyrians, or rather their descendents, who were there
> before the first millennium BC, which makes the Serbian
> "historical" claim look a little silly.
>
>    But these ethnic histories solve nothing; one has only
> to look at the Middle East to have that demonstrated.
> Such arguments over who is exclusively entitled to the
> "land" are endless, unending, and productive of nothing
> but carnage, even between folks as completely and
> totally indistinguishable as two Irishmen.
>
>    United Statesians (so as to avoid the over-broad usage
> of "Americans") mostly have what is so often called a
> "naive" view: "Why doesn't everybody just forget about
> settling the score for the past and try to work on solving
> the problems that exist NOW?"
>
>    The scorn of the sophisticated not withstanding, there
> is a another name for this: SANITY. If the price of this
> mental health is to be achieved by, say, modern Europeans,
> acting as if THEY never had a war, being morally superior
> to those so backward as to get stuck in conflicts, well,
> sanity is worth that. That IS the idea -- to dump the past.
> "History," said James Joyce a century ago, "is a nightmare
> I'm trying to wake up from."
>
>> does Europe have a "Battle of Little Bighorn", which...
>> was the fight leading to the demise of a race of people?
>
>    Duh. Yeah! And the Sioux (and all the other tribes
> that participated in an INDIAN victory there) still exist,
> no thanks to General Custer, just as Jews still exist, no
> thanks to... We weren't going to drag up the past,
> were we?
>
>> if the Indians had caught on quicker...
>
>    American natives caught on right away. They each
> and all sat in council about what to do about the odd
> newcomers from the very year they first showed up!
> Every strategy you can imagine was tried. It's common-
> place to present these centuries of native statecraft as
> if they all sat there like idiots until the late 1800's, but
> that notion is what is really demeaning. A delay of a
> potential annihilation for centuries is a major achievement;
> there are innumerable spots around the globe where
> indigenous peoples have been destroyed in a decade
> or three. As for uniting scores, even hundreds, of
> nations with no common language, belief, or culture,
> ask Tecumseh about how that worked out...
>
>    The real "war" was epidemiological. The "Black
> Death" made its way into North America ahead of the
> Europeans, in the 15th century, and was followed
> shortly by a flood of new European diseases in the
> next century. Europeans, in person, were entering
> devastated and de-populated lands everywhere in
> the "New World," north and south. Not that they
> weren't trying to kill the locals, just that their efforts
> were puny compared to what the microbes (whose
> existence both sides were unaware of) accomplished.
> It's hard to slow down an invasion when your own
> population is reduced by up to 90%!
>
>    I'm sorry you were so upset by General Oglethorpe
> and the Battle of Bloody Marsh, Doug, but I will remind
> you that it took place after Jerkins carted his ear-in-a-jar
> up to the British Parliment and got Walpole to declare
> the Ear War. Had the fortunes of war fallen differently,
> why, you would be walking the picturesque calles de
> Neuvo Atlanta, capitol of Las Floridas del Norte, while
> avoiding the camera-toting USian tourists in their garish
> shirts and plastic flip-flops...
>
>    I would love to "kick around" the causes of the
> five-day "Football War" with you, Doug, but I think
> that it breaks the tenuous chain that links Jenkins' ear
> to a wet meteorite in a moat surrounded by mocking
> Frenchmen!
>
>
> Sterling K. Webb
> ------------------------------------------------------------------
> And Bill just summed it up in three sentences better
> than either of us, I think...
> ------------------------------------------------------------------
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "MexicoDoug" <MexicoDoug at aim.com>
> To: "Sterling K. Webb" <sterling_k_webb at sbcglobal.net>
> Cc: <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
> Sent: Saturday, November 25, 2006 8:56 PM
> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite novels -gifts II
>
>
>> Sterling wrote:
>> "1739-1740 War of Jenkins' Ear"
>> "And [the USA's] certainly never managed to have a war as magnificently 
>> named as "The War of Jenkins' Ear"! Now, that's how to name a war! Clear,

>> concise, and everybody knows exactly what it's all about."
>>
>> Hey Sterling,
>>
>> Hah! remember studies in Western Civ - between Physics and philosophy 
>> class :-) -, really, the USA has darn well so managed to have a war 
>> equally magnificient in name as the "War of Jenkin's Ear".
>>
>> It was called "The War of Jenkin's Ear"; Same Jenkins - and it wasn't 
>> Jenkin's other ear.  Don't forget that Jenkin's ear was supposedly 
>> severed in the Americas, and he was as English as George Washington at 
>> the time. So I'd Argue that not only did the Americans participate in 
>> that war - they also started it.  Not to mention the USA started the 
>> funiest named war of all: The "Quasi-War" as thanks to the French right 
>> after the French supported the American Independence effort.
>>
>> That particular Jenkin's Ear war in the 1740's is actually the same war 
>> that was contracted by the European continent and spread to Bohemia and 
>> resulted in the French tossing the Elbogen Iron meteorite down the to the

>> bottom of the Bohemian well where it rusted for 40 years.  It was a small

>> world back then, too.  In the USA, in the great American State of 
>> Georgia, the military general who founded Georgia wasted no time to 
>> marshal his proud Savannah compatriots and adventurous Charlestonians out

>> of South Carolina to pillage everything from Jacksonville, Florida to St.

>> Augustine, and that was only openers.
>>
>> Oh the United States has had oogles more practically nameless wars than 
>> you give it credit for in those years.  They don't Google easily out of a

>> database like your nice European ones, but they were bloodier if Indians 
>> are men considered equal in the eyes of the Creator.  You've got to 
>> consider that in Europe all those wars were spread among 20-30 countries.

>> How many Indian real nations do you think the singular USA trounced in a 
>> religious ferver to achieve its destiny?  The USA is a nation that was 
>> perpetually at war on its own and its extended frontiers.  There are more

>> Indian wars alone, than Indian nations that yielded in defeat against the

>> cleansing of the continent from Atlantic to Pacific.  Take Florida, which

>> heaped war upon wars, genocide and forced relocation.  Or maybe 
>> Missouri - if the Indians had caught on quicker, you might be living in a

>> teepee today, or at least your neighbor  :-)
>>
>> As for the lack of colorful names of wars in the USA even without 
>> considering who started the War of Jenkin's Ear, does Europe have a 
>> "Battle of Little Bighorn", which is a battle the war easily can assume 
>> for the name, and really was the fight leading to the demise of a race of

>> people? If that isn't enough, how about the Gipper's "Star Wars", who has

>> one of those programs besides George Lucas?  And I am convinced that the 
>> US participated as a silent partner in the infamous "Football War," as 
>> well...
>>
>> Best wishes, Doug
>> (no slights to any nation, no offense; we are who we are and I can live 
>> with that just fine, until someone else tosses a spectacular iron in a 
>> well to fester.  Guess the Evian was too depleted in minerals for their 
>> taste)
>>
>>
>> thread truncated...
>
>
> 

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