[meteorite-list] Handling rust problems after buying Irons

[MexicoDoug]

Hiho Martinho,

Nice....Everything you say has an element of truth and you have 
conditionally agreed with everything I say as well !

So here we have a case of questioning holy absolute sellers' rights and me 
saying check whether the seller hid something to fairly assess this.  We 
don't think that happened.  I think I was fair-handed in pointing out 
something the buyer did that bothered me and you were mute upon.  Dead 
pelicans aside, I will rise to the continued challenge for the record:

"Ocassionally, folks need to listen to buyers' complaints (valid and invalid 
alike) as a preventative measure to promote a healthy market and enjoyable 
attitude toward meteorite collecting and enjoyment - a hard line attitude 
with newbies squashes new entrants and has a dark side:  It stimulates those 
dishonest members of the community to push the envelope well beyond your 
subjective limits using the 'tough luck' attitude. "

Are you sure you are not being influenced by your preconceived or personally 
known notions of either seller, buyer, or source material you may have 
purchased for yourself or for resale from him?  You seem to know about or 
have researched the Seller.  The major problem in this complaint is that the 
seller ignored the subsequent emails of the buyer after the buyer wished to 
clarify the initial response he got after buying not one, but four specimens 
on different ocassions close in time.  I hope that complaint registered with 
you.  If you know from personal experience that the seller's stuff is ok and 
he is just inexperienced, fine, but don't expect everyone else to assume or 
google that away !  As a matter of fact you probably are right...but most of 
us can't know that.  I think he deserves that followup and I won't buy 
silence is due to "worse English", but from what you say about him putting 
the wrong locality description in the auctions, I can only sob.  Sob Sob. 
Sob Sob Sob...

Then we get these disillusioning commercial situations of "My meteorites are 
better that your meteorites", commercial crap, with every insult, avoidance 
tactic, explicit or implied, etc., when the only thing that really matters 
is honesty and knowledge of what the sample was improperly treated with. 
The fact that there is variability in meteorite corrosion characteristics 
does not excuse you or anyone for selling Morasko that was washed off in old 
radiator fluid, or was marketed in a misleading way.   I don't suggest a 
meteorite be something it isn't, perform what it can't, defy the laws of its 
own natural physics and chemisty - but there is more to this than boldly 
buying and selling pork belly options without ever having seen a pig.

Clear Irons,
Doug
PS  Ms. Buckleboo says she was thinking of you,  that you no longer sing her 
praises...have you broken up, or is it because the chase is over and you 
finally got a piece?  Maybe Sarah Jessica Parker has written a column on 
this...(PS I bought the Meteorite Spoon)

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Martin Altmann" <altmann at meteorite-martin.de>
To: "'MexicoDoug'" <MexicoDoug at aim.com>; 
<meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
Sent: Monday, November 20, 2006 1:14 PM
Subject: AW: [meteorite-list] Handling rust problems after buying Irons


"At this point nothing is proven, and fraud could only be if something were
"hidden purposefully"

Yah, but what will happen, if you're going with your dead pelican to the pet
shop, telling the seller: you purposefully have hidden, that this bird is
not eating grass, but fish!

"to have fissures along
interfaces where rust could brew"...

Could, but not necessarily has to.

"negative impact on the sharing of cutting and
conservation info for meteorites"

Oldest sentence: Know your seller.
For most of the professionals, a proper preparation is such a matter of
course, that they never would have the idea to even mention it.

I mean, if he's that seller I have in mind, then it is an amateur, here and
there selling a little piece from his home meteorite Morasko, a young boy,
who can't have the experience like a veteran collector or preparator, maybe
his English is worse than mine and the only thing, I consider to be strange
in his auctions is, that he uses a historic print of the fall of Montpreis
for advertising his Morasko.

Doug, imagine that guy, who bought your large Toluca will slice it and will
find out, that it's a ruster. Did you supply him with the proper warning, as
you write here, that it is necessary?

Huh, have we to instruct the poor Polish boy, if he'll sell his used Polski
Fiat on ebay, to add a warning: Caution! Driving causes horrible losses of
lives? The consumption of burgers can cause sincere heart deseases. The
consumption of cotton socks causes constiveness.

Doug, list, World: Iron meteorites do rust. That's trivial.


Almost each advanced collector has some samples of irons, which need special
care. Forget for a moment about the 10-20 mass irons. Meteorites a rare and
historical iron meteorites are more rare than historic stones.
I know only a few, who would reject a Hraschina, a Tuxon Ring, a Willamette,
if priced right, only because they can rust.

And what shall we do with all the Brahins, Brenhams, Campos, Moraskos -
shall we bring them to the junkyard, cause they could cause troubles in a
collectors hand?

Ze Martinho



-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: MexicoDoug [mailto:MexicoDoug at aim.com]
Gesendet: Montag, 20. November 2006 17:59
An: Martin Altmann
Cc: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com
Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] Handling rust problems after buying Irons

Martin wrote:

"you have to be careful in blaming someone being fraudulent.  In this case
you have to turn the angle.  It would have been a fraud, if the seller would

have stated, that his piece
would be stable."

Hi Martin,

I tried to be very careful, and want to clarify in case you didn't catch
exactly my thinking originally on this.  In no way am I suggesting fraud was

demonstrated in the present case described.  But fraud isn't as simple as
you state either.  The Cliff Notes summary version of what I tried to say:

- At this point nothing is proven, and fraud could only be if something were

hidden purposefully - so I ask (I suspect it is not the present case),
hoping to demonstrate where the "bad seller" line hypothetically could be
drawn and find universal agreement.
- In the case of Morasko, it it particularly prone to have fissures along
interfaces where rust could brew due to the meteoroid's shock history
- Nothing in the post shows the Seller to have done anything wrong, but the
apparent cesion of communication is something that merits the loupe
- It stinks to have an iron rust and even if it's one's own fault we should
be nice about it to all those affected as it is the nature of the beast.
- Irons do rust and there are genetic (locality and individual) as well as
behavioral (preparation and care) reasons for the rusting
- Commerce has a very negative impact on the sharing of cutting and
conservation info for meteorites (soap-box comment we must improve on this
before someone else eventually does that job for us)
- There wasn't enough info provided to judge the present case
- A list complaint was apparently filed as a last resort effort to force
continued communication with the Seller
- I would really like to know what exactly the "obscure suggestion" to
conserve the meteorite as that would give an arms' length temperature of the

problem
-And the latter would contribute to great list content

I am neutral in this until more info is provided - not assuming anything
either way except the happening of 4 unhappy sales and a big funeral, and
wishing the sad participants my best,

Best wishes and thanks for the nice comments on the book,
Doug