[meteorite-list] Case study: Lake Eyre meteorite vs. U.S.

Wed Jan 20 15:45:57 EST 2016

Waste of breath, don't use it in an endless 'debate'...
Keyboard Warrior Alert ...---...

-----Original Message----- 
From: Michael Mulgrew via Meteorite-list
Sent: Wednesday, January 20, 2016 2:45 PM
To: Raremeteorites
Cc: Meteorite List
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Case study: Lake Eyre meteorite vs. U.S.

Adam,

Please cite me (and the rest of the list) the law by order and
section.  "I saw it in a book" doesn't mean jack or shit to me.

-Michael in so. Cal.

On Wed, Jan 20, 2016 at 10:26 AM, Raremeteorites via Meteorite-list
<meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com> wrote:
> A federal law is on the books about meteorites found on public land are 
> not
> to used for commercial purposes.  A BLM agent working the Pahrump, Nevada
> area showed us this law in a book he pulled from his truck in the field
> after Guido Diero asked to see the laws governing meteorites.  This is 
> after
> the agent questioned our team members individually to try and catch us 
> with
> leading questions like "how much are they worth?, how many have you sold?"
> and so on.  Our team individually answered appropriately that they have no
> commercial value whatsoever since they cannot be sold and that the real
> value is scientific.
>
> Future generations may remember our generation as the one that screwed
> everything up by publicly placing a monetary value on meteorites and
> attracting the attention of unelected federal and state lawmakers.  The
> Great Late Richard Norton warned this would happen decades ago.
>
> Adam
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Mulgrew" <mikestang at gmail.com>
> To: "Raremeteorites" <raremeteorites at centurylink.net>
> Cc: "Meteorite List" <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, January 20, 2016 9:55 AM
> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Case study: Lake Eyre meteorite vs. U.S.
>
>
> Except that there are no laws concerning meteorites and the infamous
> "BLM order" expired Sep. 30, 2013.
>
> Like Larry wrote previously, the permit and the process was a joke - a
> series of hoops to be jumped through and when I got to the last hoop
> they kept moving it further away.  I don't think they expected anyone
> to even make it as far as I did.
>
> We don't need to worry about the first American Lunar, it will 100% be
> found on private property.
>
> -Michael in so. Cal.
>
> On Tue, Jan 19, 2016 at 10:38 AM, Raremeteorites via Meteorite-list
> <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>> I agree with what you said about the laws not being enforced but they are
>> still on the books and most likely will never come off.  I have not been
>> hassled recently and the last time was in the same period as Met-Men.
>> Apparently the BLM thought meteorites were lying around like Easter eggs 
>> and
>> people were becoming rich from them so they needed more laws to protect
>> people from making any form of profit.  There is also no statue of
>> limitations on federal laws so when somebody finds that North American
>> Lunar, they can go back in time to bolster their case.
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Larry Atkins" <thetoprok at aol.com>
>> To: <raremeteorites at centurylink.net>;
>> <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
>> Sent: Monday, January 18, 2016 8:22 PM
>> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Case study: Lake Eyre meteorite vs. U.S.
>>
>>
>> Hi Adam,
>>
>> What I said is true. Unenforced laws are meaningless. A warning or
>> whatever. really doesn't add up to anything of substance, and without 
>> actual
>> charges or at least a ticket, it's just words.
>>
>> I'm guessing, only guessing, the incidents you mentioned happened during,
>> or just after the peak of the" Met Men" series, when the BLM was on a
>> mission to keep us from making all that 'easy money'. I'd bet those same
>> officers watching eBay have tired of the activity and moved on to bigger
>> fish long ago. Not much to get uptight about on eBay regarding American
>> meteorites "poached" from state or federal land. It wouldn't take long 
>> for
>> them to figure out that monitoring eBay is a nonstarter, not enough money 
>> to
>> merit the effort. The crater is the exception but that's a whole other
>> topic.
>>
>> I spend a lot of time in the field, thousands of hours, and I have hard
>> core meteorite hunting buddies pounding the ground for thousands of hours
>> per year without incident. Every single officer I've come into contact 
>> with
>> was aware of what I was doing and never once have I had an issue. Some 
>> day
>> if we ever  get together we can share some stories.
>>
>> As far as artifacts and fossils go you are correct, but only to a point.
>> You can surface collect in most areas as far as I know. I can pick up
>> fossils all day long, no one cares until I find 'Sue'. The same will hold
>> true for meteorites, no one is gonna care until I recover the first North
>> American Lunar.
>>
>> The heat has cooled off. Relax,, Smile and go find some rocks bro. : )
>>
>>
>>
>> Sincerely,
>> Larry Atkins
>>
>> IMCA # 1941
>> Ebay alienrockfarm
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Raremeteorites via Meteorite-list
>> <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
>> To: meteorite-list <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
>> Sent: Mon, Jan 18, 2016 7:02 pm
>> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Case study: Lake Eyre meteorite vs. U.S.
>>
>> I wish what you said was true.  Our entire group was hassled around the
>> Pahrump area in Nevada and twice in California.  Eight of our team 
>> members
>> were threatened (warned) and I know others on the List who have been
>> hassled
>> as well.  Two agents based out Barstow went as far as saying they know
>> what
>> is being sold on eBay.  We were told that some public land is designated
>> as
>> heritage or areas of areas of critical concern which are completely off
>> limits while metal detectors cannot be used in other areas.  I cannot 
>> find
>> any source which lists these areas so an agent can determine this in 
>> field
>> so be careful.  Just ask artifact and fossils hunters what happened with
>> their once-fine avocation including the fellow who found "Sue" the
>> dinosaur.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Larry Atkins" <thetoprok at aol.com>
>> To: <raremeteorites at centurylink.net>;
>> <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
>> Sent: Monday, January 18, 2016 4:38 PM
>> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Case study: Lake Eyre meteorite vs. U.S.
>>
>>
>> Hi Adam, All,
>>
>> This may be true but it is very rarely if ever enforced, rendering the
>> laws
>> meaningless. BLM got all excited a couple years ago but it came to
>> nothing,
>> ask Michael Mulgrew how his application went. It's a joke. The people
>> enforcing the laws of our wild lands have better things to do than hassle
>> rock hounds. In my sixteen years of hunting and occasional selling I've
>> never heard of, or experienced trouble. In fact, I've encountered law
>> enforcement of all types while in the field, told them exactly what I was
>> doing, talked money and everything, and all they say is "Good luck! Have 
>> a
>> great day!"
>>
>> Sell your rocks if you want, business as usual.
>>
>>
>>
>> Sincerely,
>> Larry Atkins
>>
>> IMCA # 1941
>> Ebay alienrockfarm
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Raremeteorites via Meteorite-list
>> <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
>> To: meteorite-list <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
>> Sent: Mon, Jan 18, 2016 3:38 pm
>> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Case study: Lake Eyre meteorite vs. U.S.
>>
>> I agree with everything you stated with the exception of response 2 where
>> you state private citizens can profit from meteorite finds here in the
>> United States.  It is against federal and most state laws to use
>> meteorites
>> found on public land for commercial purposes meaning that the finder is
>> not
>> allowed to sell anything they find.  Private citizen are prohibited from
>> making a profit without a permit which will never be issued.
>>
>>
>>
>> 2) If private citizens were prohibited from profiting from the recovery 
>> of
>> meteorites,
>> would you expect a negative impact on the quantity of recovered material
>> from a
>> new fall? I think this is undeniable, and therefore it certainly follows
>> that the total
>> mass deposited with accredited institutions would suffer. And it's not
>> just
>> the
>> quantity, it's the quality. A meteorite recovered within 24 hours of a
>> fall
>> is obviously
>> more scientifically valuable than one recovered a month later, when
>> terrestrial
>> weathering has altered some rare minerals, and short-lived radioisotopes
>> have
>> decayed below the threshold of detectability.
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Matson, Rob D. via Meteorite-list"
>> <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
>> To: <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
>> Sent: Monday, January 18, 2016 12:12 PM
>> Subject: [meteorite-list] Case study: Lake Eyre meteorite vs. U.S.
>>
>>
>> Hi Ian,
>>
>> Since you brought up the Creston fall, presumably as a comparison example
>> against
>> current Australian state policies, I feel some counter-commentary is
>> appropriate.
>>
>>> Creston is a example of where things went a bit pair shaped in my mind
>>> for
>>> science.
>>
>>
>>
>> In my opinion, Creston was really no stranger than Sutter's Mill, Novato,
>> Battle Mountain,
>> Mifflin or Ash Creek. Science has been well served by all of these falls.
>>
>>> USA had a private network of cameras setup that captured the fireball, a
>>> private individual
>>> and some others extracted that meteorite, the first piece(s) was then on
>>> sold. Finally it
>>> was sold for a ridiculous price. Not illegal or immoral......just not
>>> ideal
>>
>>
>>
>> I think what you are getting at is that only a small fraction of each of
>> these falls made
>> it into the hands of researchers. There are a couple points to consider:
>>
>> (1) How much material do researchers really need to extract the majority
>> of
>> pertinent
>> scientific data from a fall? Sure, if you had infinite time you'd love to
>> have all of it since
>> the individual meteorites from a fall are not necessarily homogenous.
>> (Case
>> in point:
>> Almahata Sitta). But balanced against this is the question of how much
>> more
>> you're
>> going to learn by analyzing all of the stones from an L6 fall.
>>
>> (2) If private citizens were prohibited from profiting from the recovery
>> of
>> meteorites,
>> would you expect a negative impact on the quantity of recovered material
>> from a
>> new fall? I think this is undeniable, and therefore it certainly follows
>> that the total
>> mass deposited with accredited institutions would suffer. And it's not
>> just
>> the
>> quantity, it's the quality. A meteorite recovered within 24 hours of a
>> fall
>> is obviously
>> more scientifically valuable than one recovered a month later, when
>> terrestrial
>> weathering has altered some rare minerals, and short-lived radioisotopes
>> have
>> decayed below the threshold of detectability.
>>
>> (3) Successful meteorite recovery requires a significant skill set AND
>> considerable
>> expenditures of time and money. In the U.S., I expect that more than 95%
>> of
>> the
>> annual resources made available through government grants to recover
>> meteorites
>> goes to ANSMET. I've spent thousands of unpaid hours on the analysis of
>> nearly
>> all U.S. falls that have occurred in the last 15 years, as well as a
>> number
>> of falls
>> outside America, and have devoted a not insignificant amount of time and
>> money
>> traveling to many of these places to recover meteorites. On each of these
>> expeditions I tend to encounter the same couple dozen of dedicated
>> individuals --
>> names that would all be familiar to anyone on the Meteorite List. On
>> occasion I have
>> seen other scientists "in the field," but I suspect in most cases it was
>> on
>> their
>> own dime and not in an official paid capacity. Meteoriticists are paid to
>> analyze
>> meteorites, not run around the country recovering them.
>>
>>> Now in Australia, we do have an likely issue of finds being hidden ( old
>>> falls and
>>> cold finds) due to our state laws. However this material will just add 
>>> to
>>> the 50,000
>>> stones we need to know more about. Where these laws are a benefit is 
>>> that
>>> when
>>> our DFN etc detects a fall, scientists (not private hunters looking for
>>> profit or cost
>>> recovery) will go out grab the stone and bring it back!
>>
>>
>>
>> Perhaps in Australia this happens. I have not seen evidence that this is
>> the
>> case
>> in the U.S.  Researchers have access to the same information that I do:
>> Doppler
>> radar, seismic networks, all-sky cameras, internet posts, the AMS website
>> and
>> a dozen other resources. Nothing other than time and funding is stopping
>> them
>> from competing with private citizens.
>>
>>> We will know where it came from, where it landed, who found it, what it
>>> is
>>> and
>>> where it will stay exactly. With much more than just a classification
>>> but,
>>> rare orbit
>>> data - which is contributing greatly to mapping our solar system and
>>> more!
>>
>>
>>
>> Well, we got all of that on both Sutter's Mill and Creston, in spite of
>> the
>> problems
>> of private land ownership and considerably harder searching conditions
>> than
>> the
>> almost ideal surfaces of the Australian outback. So both systems can 
>> work.
>> I
>> just
>> think the current U.S. laws favor a higher success rate than in Australia
>> because
>> they (at least currently) provide enough incentive to boost the
>> people-hours
>> that get devoted to each fall.
>>
>> Best wishes,
>> Rob
>>
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