[meteorite-list] Case study: Lake Eyre meteorite vs. U.S.

[Raremeteorites]

One just has to research Sue the T- Rex or the Old Woman meteorite to see 
that the regulations are enforceable under law.  The poor Sue the T-Rex 
finder was rewarded with a prison sentence under these regulations (laws).


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Raremeteorites via Meteorite-list" 
<meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
To: <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 20, 2016 12:11 PM
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Case study: Lake Eyre meteorite vs. U.S.


> Federal rules and regulations are laws.
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Michael Mulgrew" <mikestang at gmail.com>
> To: "Raremeteorites" <raremeteorites at centurylink.net>
> Cc: "Meteorite List" <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, January 20, 2016 12:04 PM
> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Case study: Lake Eyre meteorite vs. U.S.
>
>
>> Not a law.  Thank you.
>>
>> -Michael in so. Cal.
>>
>> On Wed, Jan 20, 2016 at 12:06 PM, Raremeteorites via Meteorite-list
>> <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com> wrote:
>>> Exact wording from BLM website:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Those interested should contact the appropriate BLM office to learn 
>>> details
>>> for their area of interest.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Can meteorites casually collected from public lands be bartered or sold?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Casual collection of meteorites from public lands is only for an
>>> individual's personal use. Sale or barter is considered commercial use. 
>>> A
>>> permit must be issued for commercial activities and fees will be 
>>> collected,
>>> including a purchase price based on a unit price or the percentage of 
>>> fair
>>> market value, and a reclamation fee, if required.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Mulgrew" 
>>> <mikestang at gmail.com>
>>> To: "Raremeteorites" <raremeteorites at centurylink.net>
>>> Cc: "Meteorite List" <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
>>> Sent: Wednesday, January 20, 2016 11:45 AM
>>> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Case study: Lake Eyre meteorite vs. U.S.
>>>
>>>
>>>> Adam,
>>>>
>>>> Please cite me (and the rest of the list) the law by order and
>>>> section.  "I saw it in a book" doesn't mean jack or shit to me.
>>>>
>>>> -Michael in so. Cal.
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, Jan 20, 2016 at 10:26 AM, Raremeteorites via Meteorite-list
>>>> <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> A federal law is on the books about meteorites found on public land 
>>>>> are
>>>>> not
>>>>> to used for commercial purposes.  A BLM agent working the Pahrump, 
>>>>> Nevada
>>>>> area showed us this law in a book he pulled from his truck in the 
>>>>> field
>>>>> after Guido Diero asked to see the laws governing meteorites.  This is
>>>>> after
>>>>> the agent questioned our team members individually to try and catch us
>>>>> with
>>>>> leading questions like "how much are they worth?, how many have you
>>>>> sold?"
>>>>> and so on.  Our team individually answered appropriately that they 
>>>>> have
>>>>> no
>>>>> commercial value whatsoever since they cannot be sold and that the 
>>>>> real
>>>>> value is scientific.
>>>>>
>>>>> Future generations may remember our generation as the one that screwed
>>>>> everything up by publicly placing a monetary value on meteorites and
>>>>> attracting the attention of unelected federal and state lawmakers. 
>>>>> The
>>>>> Great Late Richard Norton warned this would happen decades ago.
>>>>>
>>>>> Adam
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Mulgrew"
>>>>> <mikestang at gmail.com>
>>>>> To: "Raremeteorites" <raremeteorites at centurylink.net>
>>>>> Cc: "Meteorite List" <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, January 20, 2016 9:55 AM
>>>>> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Case study: Lake Eyre meteorite vs. U.S.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Except that there are no laws concerning meteorites and the infamous
>>>>> "BLM order" expired Sep. 30, 2013.
>>>>>
>>>>> Like Larry wrote previously, the permit and the process was a joke - a
>>>>> series of hoops to be jumped through and when I got to the last hoop
>>>>> they kept moving it further away.  I don't think they expected anyone
>>>>> to even make it as far as I did.
>>>>>
>>>>> We don't need to worry about the first American Lunar, it will 100% be
>>>>> found on private property.
>>>>>
>>>>> -Michael in so. Cal.
>>>>>
>>>>> On Tue, Jan 19, 2016 at 10:38 AM, Raremeteorites via Meteorite-list
>>>>> <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I agree with what you said about the laws not being enforced but they
>>>>>> are
>>>>>> still on the books and most likely will never come off.  I have not 
>>>>>> been
>>>>>> hassled recently and the last time was in the same period as Met-Men.
>>>>>> Apparently the BLM thought meteorites were lying around like Easter 
>>>>>> eggs
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> people were becoming rich from them so they needed more laws to 
>>>>>> protect
>>>>>> people from making any form of profit.  There is also no statue of
>>>>>> limitations on federal laws so when somebody finds that North 
>>>>>> American
>>>>>> Lunar, they can go back in time to bolster their case.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Larry Atkins" <thetoprok at aol.com>
>>>>>> To: <raremeteorites at centurylink.net>;
>>>>>> <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
>>>>>> Sent: Monday, January 18, 2016 8:22 PM
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Case study: Lake Eyre meteorite vs. 
>>>>>> U.S.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi Adam,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What I said is true. Unenforced laws are meaningless. A warning or
>>>>>> whatever. really doesn't add up to anything of substance, and without
>>>>>> actual
>>>>>> charges or at least a ticket, it's just words.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm guessing, only guessing, the incidents you mentioned happened
>>>>>> during,
>>>>>> or just after the peak of the" Met Men" series, when the BLM was on a
>>>>>> mission to keep us from making all that 'easy money'. I'd bet those 
>>>>>> same
>>>>>> officers watching eBay have tired of the activity and moved on to 
>>>>>> bigger
>>>>>> fish long ago. Not much to get uptight about on eBay regarding 
>>>>>> American
>>>>>> meteorites "poached" from state or federal land. It wouldn't take 
>>>>>> long
>>>>>> for
>>>>>> them to figure out that monitoring eBay is a nonstarter, not enough
>>>>>> money to
>>>>>> merit the effort. The crater is the exception but that's a whole 
>>>>>> other
>>>>>> topic.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I spend a lot of time in the field, thousands of hours, and I have 
>>>>>> hard
>>>>>> core meteorite hunting buddies pounding the ground for thousands of
>>>>>> hours
>>>>>> per year without incident. Every single officer I've come into 
>>>>>> contact
>>>>>> with
>>>>>> was aware of what I was doing and never once have I had an issue. 
>>>>>> Some
>>>>>> day
>>>>>> if we ever  get together we can share some stories.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> As far as artifacts and fossils go you are correct, but only to a 
>>>>>> point.
>>>>>> You can surface collect in most areas as far as I know. I can pick up
>>>>>> fossils all day long, no one cares until I find 'Sue'. The same will
>>>>>> hold
>>>>>> true for meteorites, no one is gonna care until I recover the first
>>>>>> North
>>>>>> American Lunar.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The heat has cooled off. Relax,, Smile and go find some rocks bro. 
>>>>>> : )
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sincerely,
>>>>>> Larry Atkins
>>>>>>
>>>>>> IMCA # 1941
>>>>>> Ebay alienrockfarm
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: Raremeteorites via Meteorite-list
>>>>>> <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
>>>>>> To: meteorite-list <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
>>>>>> Sent: Mon, Jan 18, 2016 7:02 pm
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Case study: Lake Eyre meteorite vs. 
>>>>>> U.S.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I wish what you said was true.  Our entire group was hassled around 
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> Pahrump area in Nevada and twice in California.  Eight of our team
>>>>>> members
>>>>>> were threatened (warned) and I know others on the List who have been
>>>>>> hassled
>>>>>> as well.  Two agents based out Barstow went as far as saying they 
>>>>>> know
>>>>>> what
>>>>>> is being sold on eBay.  We were told that some public land is 
>>>>>> designated
>>>>>> as
>>>>>> heritage or areas of areas of critical concern which are completely 
>>>>>> off
>>>>>> limits while metal detectors cannot be used in other areas.  I cannot
>>>>>> find
>>>>>> any source which lists these areas so an agent can determine this in
>>>>>> field
>>>>>> so be careful.  Just ask artifact and fossils hunters what happened 
>>>>>> with
>>>>>> their once-fine avocation including the fellow who found "Sue" the
>>>>>> dinosaur.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Larry Atkins" <thetoprok at aol.com>
>>>>>> To: <raremeteorites at centurylink.net>;
>>>>>> <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
>>>>>> Sent: Monday, January 18, 2016 4:38 PM
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Case study: Lake Eyre meteorite vs. 
>>>>>> U.S.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi Adam, All,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This may be true but it is very rarely if ever enforced, rendering 
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> laws
>>>>>> meaningless. BLM got all excited a couple years ago but it came to
>>>>>> nothing,
>>>>>> ask Michael Mulgrew how his application went. It's a joke. The people
>>>>>> enforcing the laws of our wild lands have better things to do than
>>>>>> hassle
>>>>>> rock hounds. In my sixteen years of hunting and occasional selling 
>>>>>> I've
>>>>>> never heard of, or experienced trouble. In fact, I've encountered law
>>>>>> enforcement of all types while in the field, told them exactly what I
>>>>>> was
>>>>>> doing, talked money and everything, and all they say is "Good luck! 
>>>>>> Have
>>>>>> a
>>>>>> great day!"
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sell your rocks if you want, business as usual.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sincerely,
>>>>>> Larry Atkins
>>>>>>
>>>>>> IMCA # 1941
>>>>>> Ebay alienrockfarm
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: Raremeteorites via Meteorite-list
>>>>>> <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
>>>>>> To: meteorite-list <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
>>>>>> Sent: Mon, Jan 18, 2016 3:38 pm
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Case study: Lake Eyre meteorite vs. 
>>>>>> U.S.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I agree with everything you stated with the exception of response 2
>>>>>> where
>>>>>> you state private citizens can profit from meteorite finds here in 
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> United States.  It is against federal and most state laws to use
>>>>>> meteorites
>>>>>> found on public land for commercial purposes meaning that the finder 
>>>>>> is
>>>>>> not
>>>>>> allowed to sell anything they find.  Private citizen are prohibited 
>>>>>> from
>>>>>> making a profit without a permit which will never be issued.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 2) If private citizens were prohibited from profiting from the 
>>>>>> recovery
>>>>>> of
>>>>>> meteorites,
>>>>>> would you expect a negative impact on the quantity of recovered 
>>>>>> material
>>>>>> from a
>>>>>> new fall? I think this is undeniable, and therefore it certainly 
>>>>>> follows
>>>>>> that the total
>>>>>> mass deposited with accredited institutions would suffer. And it's 
>>>>>> not
>>>>>> just
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> quantity, it's the quality. A meteorite recovered within 24 hours of 
>>>>>> a
>>>>>> fall
>>>>>> is obviously
>>>>>> more scientifically valuable than one recovered a month later, when
>>>>>> terrestrial
>>>>>> weathering has altered some rare minerals, and short-lived 
>>>>>> radioisotopes
>>>>>> have
>>>>>> decayed below the threshold of detectability.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Matson, Rob D. via 
>>>>>> Meteorite-list"
>>>>>> <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
>>>>>> To: <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
>>>>>> Sent: Monday, January 18, 2016 12:12 PM
>>>>>> Subject: [meteorite-list] Case study: Lake Eyre meteorite vs. U.S.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi Ian,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Since you brought up the Creston fall, presumably as a comparison
>>>>>> example
>>>>>> against
>>>>>> current Australian state policies, I feel some counter-commentary is
>>>>>> appropriate.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Creston is a example of where things went a bit pair shaped in my 
>>>>>>> mind
>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>> science.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In my opinion, Creston was really no stranger than Sutter's Mill,
>>>>>> Novato,
>>>>>> Battle Mountain,
>>>>>> Mifflin or Ash Creek. Science has been well served by all of these
>>>>>> falls.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> USA had a private network of cameras setup that captured the 
>>>>>>> fireball,
>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>> private individual
>>>>>>> and some others extracted that meteorite, the first piece(s) was 
>>>>>>> then
>>>>>>> on
>>>>>>> sold. Finally it
>>>>>>> was sold for a ridiculous price. Not illegal or immoral......just 
>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>> ideal
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I think what you are getting at is that only a small fraction of each 
>>>>>> of
>>>>>> these falls made
>>>>>> it into the hands of researchers. There are a couple points to 
>>>>>> consider:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> (1) How much material do researchers really need to extract the 
>>>>>> majority
>>>>>> of
>>>>>> pertinent
>>>>>> scientific data from a fall? Sure, if you had infinite time you'd 
>>>>>> love
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> have all of it since
>>>>>> the individual meteorites from a fall are not necessarily homogenous.
>>>>>> (Case
>>>>>> in point:
>>>>>> Almahata Sitta). But balanced against this is the question of how 
>>>>>> much
>>>>>> more
>>>>>> you're
>>>>>> going to learn by analyzing all of the stones from an L6 fall.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> (2) If private citizens were prohibited from profiting from the 
>>>>>> recovery
>>>>>> of
>>>>>> meteorites,
>>>>>> would you expect a negative impact on the quantity of recovered 
>>>>>> material
>>>>>> from a
>>>>>> new fall? I think this is undeniable, and therefore it certainly 
>>>>>> follows
>>>>>> that the total
>>>>>> mass deposited with accredited institutions would suffer. And it's 
>>>>>> not
>>>>>> just
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> quantity, it's the quality. A meteorite recovered within 24 hours of 
>>>>>> a
>>>>>> fall
>>>>>> is obviously
>>>>>> more scientifically valuable than one recovered a month later, when
>>>>>> terrestrial
>>>>>> weathering has altered some rare minerals, and short-lived 
>>>>>> radioisotopes
>>>>>> have
>>>>>> decayed below the threshold of detectability.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> (3) Successful meteorite recovery requires a significant skill set 
>>>>>> AND
>>>>>> considerable
>>>>>> expenditures of time and money. In the U.S., I expect that more than 
>>>>>> 95%
>>>>>> of
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> annual resources made available through government grants to recover
>>>>>> meteorites
>>>>>> goes to ANSMET. I've spent thousands of unpaid hours on the analysis 
>>>>>> of
>>>>>> nearly
>>>>>> all U.S. falls that have occurred in the last 15 years, as well as a
>>>>>> number
>>>>>> of falls
>>>>>> outside America, and have devoted a not insignificant amount of time 
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> money
>>>>>> traveling to many of these places to recover meteorites. On each of
>>>>>> these
>>>>>> expeditions I tend to encounter the same couple dozen of dedicated
>>>>>> individuals --
>>>>>> names that would all be familiar to anyone on the Meteorite List. On
>>>>>> occasion I have
>>>>>> seen other scientists "in the field," but I suspect in most cases it 
>>>>>> was
>>>>>> on
>>>>>> their
>>>>>> own dime and not in an official paid capacity. Meteoriticists are 
>>>>>> paid
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> analyze
>>>>>> meteorites, not run around the country recovering them.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Now in Australia, we do have an likely issue of finds being hidden (
>>>>>>> old
>>>>>>> falls and
>>>>>>> cold finds) due to our state laws. However this material will just 
>>>>>>> add
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>> the 50,000
>>>>>>> stones we need to know more about. Where these laws are a benefit is
>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>> when
>>>>>>> our DFN etc detects a fall, scientists (not private hunters looking 
>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>> profit or cost
>>>>>>> recovery) will go out grab the stone and bring it back!
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Perhaps in Australia this happens. I have not seen evidence that this 
>>>>>> is
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> case
>>>>>> in the U.S.  Researchers have access to the same information that I 
>>>>>> do:
>>>>>> Doppler
>>>>>> radar, seismic networks, all-sky cameras, internet posts, the AMS
>>>>>> website
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> a dozen other resources. Nothing other than time and funding is 
>>>>>> stopping
>>>>>> them
>>>>>> from competing with private citizens.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> We will know where it came from, where it landed, who found it, what 
>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>> where it will stay exactly. With much more than just a 
>>>>>>> classification
>>>>>>> but,
>>>>>>> rare orbit
>>>>>>> data - which is contributing greatly to mapping our solar system and
>>>>>>> more!
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Well, we got all of that on both Sutter's Mill and Creston, in spite 
>>>>>> of
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> problems
>>>>>> of private land ownership and considerably harder searching 
>>>>>> conditions
>>>>>> than
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> almost ideal surfaces of the Australian outback. So both systems can
>>>>>> work.
>>>>>> I
>>>>>> just
>>>>>> think the current U.S. laws favor a higher success rate than in
>>>>>> Australia
>>>>>> because
>>>>>> they (at least currently) provide enough incentive to boost the
>>>>>> people-hours
>>>>>> that get devoted to each fall.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Best wishes,
>>>>>> Rob
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ______________________________________________
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>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
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>>>>>
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