[meteorite-list] Case study: Lake Eyre meteorite vs. U.S.

[Michael Mulgrew]

Not a law.  Thank you.

-Michael in so. Cal.

On Wed, Jan 20, 2016 at 12:06 PM, Raremeteorites via Meteorite-list
<meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com> wrote:
> Exact wording from BLM website:
>
>
>
> Those interested should contact the appropriate BLM office to learn details
> for their area of interest.
>
>
>
> Can meteorites casually collected from public lands be bartered or sold?
>
>
>
> Casual collection of meteorites from public lands is only for an
> individual's personal use. Sale or barter is considered commercial use.  A
> permit must be issued for commercial activities and fees will be collected,
> including a purchase price based on a unit price or the percentage of fair
> market value, and a reclamation fee, if required.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Mulgrew" <mikestang at gmail.com>
> To: "Raremeteorites" <raremeteorites at centurylink.net>
> Cc: "Meteorite List" <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, January 20, 2016 11:45 AM
> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Case study: Lake Eyre meteorite vs. U.S.
>
>
>> Adam,
>>
>> Please cite me (and the rest of the list) the law by order and
>> section.  "I saw it in a book" doesn't mean jack or shit to me.
>>
>> -Michael in so. Cal.
>>
>> On Wed, Jan 20, 2016 at 10:26 AM, Raremeteorites via Meteorite-list
>> <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> A federal law is on the books about meteorites found on public land are
>>> not
>>> to used for commercial purposes.  A BLM agent working the Pahrump, Nevada
>>> area showed us this law in a book he pulled from his truck in the field
>>> after Guido Diero asked to see the laws governing meteorites.  This is
>>> after
>>> the agent questioned our team members individually to try and catch us
>>> with
>>> leading questions like "how much are they worth?, how many have you
>>> sold?"
>>> and so on.  Our team individually answered appropriately that they have
>>> no
>>> commercial value whatsoever since they cannot be sold and that the real
>>> value is scientific.
>>>
>>> Future generations may remember our generation as the one that screwed
>>> everything up by publicly placing a monetary value on meteorites and
>>> attracting the attention of unelected federal and state lawmakers.  The
>>> Great Late Richard Norton warned this would happen decades ago.
>>>
>>> Adam
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Mulgrew"
>>> <mikestang at gmail.com>
>>> To: "Raremeteorites" <raremeteorites at centurylink.net>
>>> Cc: "Meteorite List" <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
>>> Sent: Wednesday, January 20, 2016 9:55 AM
>>> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Case study: Lake Eyre meteorite vs. U.S.
>>>
>>>
>>> Except that there are no laws concerning meteorites and the infamous
>>> "BLM order" expired Sep. 30, 2013.
>>>
>>> Like Larry wrote previously, the permit and the process was a joke - a
>>> series of hoops to be jumped through and when I got to the last hoop
>>> they kept moving it further away.  I don't think they expected anyone
>>> to even make it as far as I did.
>>>
>>> We don't need to worry about the first American Lunar, it will 100% be
>>> found on private property.
>>>
>>> -Michael in so. Cal.
>>>
>>> On Tue, Jan 19, 2016 at 10:38 AM, Raremeteorites via Meteorite-list
>>> <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I agree with what you said about the laws not being enforced but they
>>>> are
>>>> still on the books and most likely will never come off.  I have not been
>>>> hassled recently and the last time was in the same period as Met-Men.
>>>> Apparently the BLM thought meteorites were lying around like Easter eggs
>>>> and
>>>> people were becoming rich from them so they needed more laws to protect
>>>> people from making any form of profit.  There is also no statue of
>>>> limitations on federal laws so when somebody finds that North American
>>>> Lunar, they can go back in time to bolster their case.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Larry Atkins" <thetoprok at aol.com>
>>>> To: <raremeteorites at centurylink.net>;
>>>> <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
>>>> Sent: Monday, January 18, 2016 8:22 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Case study: Lake Eyre meteorite vs. U.S.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Hi Adam,
>>>>
>>>> What I said is true. Unenforced laws are meaningless. A warning or
>>>> whatever. really doesn't add up to anything of substance, and without
>>>> actual
>>>> charges or at least a ticket, it's just words.
>>>>
>>>> I'm guessing, only guessing, the incidents you mentioned happened
>>>> during,
>>>> or just after the peak of the" Met Men" series, when the BLM was on a
>>>> mission to keep us from making all that 'easy money'. I'd bet those same
>>>> officers watching eBay have tired of the activity and moved on to bigger
>>>> fish long ago. Not much to get uptight about on eBay regarding American
>>>> meteorites "poached" from state or federal land. It wouldn't take long
>>>> for
>>>> them to figure out that monitoring eBay is a nonstarter, not enough
>>>> money to
>>>> merit the effort. The crater is the exception but that's a whole other
>>>> topic.
>>>>
>>>> I spend a lot of time in the field, thousands of hours, and I have hard
>>>> core meteorite hunting buddies pounding the ground for thousands of
>>>> hours
>>>> per year without incident. Every single officer I've come into contact
>>>> with
>>>> was aware of what I was doing and never once have I had an issue. Some
>>>> day
>>>> if we ever  get together we can share some stories.
>>>>
>>>> As far as artifacts and fossils go you are correct, but only to a point.
>>>> You can surface collect in most areas as far as I know. I can pick up
>>>> fossils all day long, no one cares until I find 'Sue'. The same will
>>>> hold
>>>> true for meteorites, no one is gonna care until I recover the first
>>>> North
>>>> American Lunar.
>>>>
>>>> The heat has cooled off. Relax,, Smile and go find some rocks bro. : )
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Sincerely,
>>>> Larry Atkins
>>>>
>>>> IMCA # 1941
>>>> Ebay alienrockfarm
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Raremeteorites via Meteorite-list
>>>> <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
>>>> To: meteorite-list <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
>>>> Sent: Mon, Jan 18, 2016 7:02 pm
>>>> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Case study: Lake Eyre meteorite vs. U.S.
>>>>
>>>> I wish what you said was true.  Our entire group was hassled around the
>>>> Pahrump area in Nevada and twice in California.  Eight of our team
>>>> members
>>>> were threatened (warned) and I know others on the List who have been
>>>> hassled
>>>> as well.  Two agents based out Barstow went as far as saying they know
>>>> what
>>>> is being sold on eBay.  We were told that some public land is designated
>>>> as
>>>> heritage or areas of areas of critical concern which are completely off
>>>> limits while metal detectors cannot be used in other areas.  I cannot
>>>> find
>>>> any source which lists these areas so an agent can determine this in
>>>> field
>>>> so be careful.  Just ask artifact and fossils hunters what happened with
>>>> their once-fine avocation including the fellow who found "Sue" the
>>>> dinosaur.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Larry Atkins" <thetoprok at aol.com>
>>>> To: <raremeteorites at centurylink.net>;
>>>> <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
>>>> Sent: Monday, January 18, 2016 4:38 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Case study: Lake Eyre meteorite vs. U.S.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Hi Adam, All,
>>>>
>>>> This may be true but it is very rarely if ever enforced, rendering the
>>>> laws
>>>> meaningless. BLM got all excited a couple years ago but it came to
>>>> nothing,
>>>> ask Michael Mulgrew how his application went. It's a joke. The people
>>>> enforcing the laws of our wild lands have better things to do than
>>>> hassle
>>>> rock hounds. In my sixteen years of hunting and occasional selling I've
>>>> never heard of, or experienced trouble. In fact, I've encountered law
>>>> enforcement of all types while in the field, told them exactly what I
>>>> was
>>>> doing, talked money and everything, and all they say is "Good luck! Have
>>>> a
>>>> great day!"
>>>>
>>>> Sell your rocks if you want, business as usual.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Sincerely,
>>>> Larry Atkins
>>>>
>>>> IMCA # 1941
>>>> Ebay alienrockfarm
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Raremeteorites via Meteorite-list
>>>> <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
>>>> To: meteorite-list <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
>>>> Sent: Mon, Jan 18, 2016 3:38 pm
>>>> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Case study: Lake Eyre meteorite vs. U.S.
>>>>
>>>> I agree with everything you stated with the exception of response 2
>>>> where
>>>> you state private citizens can profit from meteorite finds here in the
>>>> United States.  It is against federal and most state laws to use
>>>> meteorites
>>>> found on public land for commercial purposes meaning that the finder is
>>>> not
>>>> allowed to sell anything they find.  Private citizen are prohibited from
>>>> making a profit without a permit which will never be issued.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 2) If private citizens were prohibited from profiting from the recovery
>>>> of
>>>> meteorites,
>>>> would you expect a negative impact on the quantity of recovered material
>>>> from a
>>>> new fall? I think this is undeniable, and therefore it certainly follows
>>>> that the total
>>>> mass deposited with accredited institutions would suffer. And it's not
>>>> just
>>>> the
>>>> quantity, it's the quality. A meteorite recovered within 24 hours of a
>>>> fall
>>>> is obviously
>>>> more scientifically valuable than one recovered a month later, when
>>>> terrestrial
>>>> weathering has altered some rare minerals, and short-lived radioisotopes
>>>> have
>>>> decayed below the threshold of detectability.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Matson, Rob D. via Meteorite-list"
>>>> <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
>>>> To: <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
>>>> Sent: Monday, January 18, 2016 12:12 PM
>>>> Subject: [meteorite-list] Case study: Lake Eyre meteorite vs. U.S.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Hi Ian,
>>>>
>>>> Since you brought up the Creston fall, presumably as a comparison
>>>> example
>>>> against
>>>> current Australian state policies, I feel some counter-commentary is
>>>> appropriate.
>>>>
>>>>> Creston is a example of where things went a bit pair shaped in my mind
>>>>> for
>>>>> science.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> In my opinion, Creston was really no stranger than Sutter's Mill,
>>>> Novato,
>>>> Battle Mountain,
>>>> Mifflin or Ash Creek. Science has been well served by all of these
>>>> falls.
>>>>
>>>>> USA had a private network of cameras setup that captured the fireball,
>>>>> a
>>>>> private individual
>>>>> and some others extracted that meteorite, the first piece(s) was then
>>>>> on
>>>>> sold. Finally it
>>>>> was sold for a ridiculous price. Not illegal or immoral......just not
>>>>> ideal
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I think what you are getting at is that only a small fraction of each of
>>>> these falls made
>>>> it into the hands of researchers. There are a couple points to consider:
>>>>
>>>> (1) How much material do researchers really need to extract the majority
>>>> of
>>>> pertinent
>>>> scientific data from a fall? Sure, if you had infinite time you'd love
>>>> to
>>>> have all of it since
>>>> the individual meteorites from a fall are not necessarily homogenous.
>>>> (Case
>>>> in point:
>>>> Almahata Sitta). But balanced against this is the question of how much
>>>> more
>>>> you're
>>>> going to learn by analyzing all of the stones from an L6 fall.
>>>>
>>>> (2) If private citizens were prohibited from profiting from the recovery
>>>> of
>>>> meteorites,
>>>> would you expect a negative impact on the quantity of recovered material
>>>> from a
>>>> new fall? I think this is undeniable, and therefore it certainly follows
>>>> that the total
>>>> mass deposited with accredited institutions would suffer. And it's not
>>>> just
>>>> the
>>>> quantity, it's the quality. A meteorite recovered within 24 hours of a
>>>> fall
>>>> is obviously
>>>> more scientifically valuable than one recovered a month later, when
>>>> terrestrial
>>>> weathering has altered some rare minerals, and short-lived radioisotopes
>>>> have
>>>> decayed below the threshold of detectability.
>>>>
>>>> (3) Successful meteorite recovery requires a significant skill set AND
>>>> considerable
>>>> expenditures of time and money. In the U.S., I expect that more than 95%
>>>> of
>>>> the
>>>> annual resources made available through government grants to recover
>>>> meteorites
>>>> goes to ANSMET. I've spent thousands of unpaid hours on the analysis of
>>>> nearly
>>>> all U.S. falls that have occurred in the last 15 years, as well as a
>>>> number
>>>> of falls
>>>> outside America, and have devoted a not insignificant amount of time and
>>>> money
>>>> traveling to many of these places to recover meteorites. On each of
>>>> these
>>>> expeditions I tend to encounter the same couple dozen of dedicated
>>>> individuals --
>>>> names that would all be familiar to anyone on the Meteorite List. On
>>>> occasion I have
>>>> seen other scientists "in the field," but I suspect in most cases it was
>>>> on
>>>> their
>>>> own dime and not in an official paid capacity. Meteoriticists are paid
>>>> to
>>>> analyze
>>>> meteorites, not run around the country recovering them.
>>>>
>>>>> Now in Australia, we do have an likely issue of finds being hidden (
>>>>> old
>>>>> falls and
>>>>> cold finds) due to our state laws. However this material will just add
>>>>> to
>>>>> the 50,000
>>>>> stones we need to know more about. Where these laws are a benefit is
>>>>> that
>>>>> when
>>>>> our DFN etc detects a fall, scientists (not private hunters looking for
>>>>> profit or cost
>>>>> recovery) will go out grab the stone and bring it back!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Perhaps in Australia this happens. I have not seen evidence that this is
>>>> the
>>>> case
>>>> in the U.S.  Researchers have access to the same information that I do:
>>>> Doppler
>>>> radar, seismic networks, all-sky cameras, internet posts, the AMS
>>>> website
>>>> and
>>>> a dozen other resources. Nothing other than time and funding is stopping
>>>> them
>>>> from competing with private citizens.
>>>>
>>>>> We will know where it came from, where it landed, who found it, what it
>>>>> is
>>>>> and
>>>>> where it will stay exactly. With much more than just a classification
>>>>> but,
>>>>> rare orbit
>>>>> data - which is contributing greatly to mapping our solar system and
>>>>> more!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Well, we got all of that on both Sutter's Mill and Creston, in spite of
>>>> the
>>>> problems
>>>> of private land ownership and considerably harder searching conditions
>>>> than
>>>> the
>>>> almost ideal surfaces of the Australian outback. So both systems can
>>>> work.
>>>> I
>>>> just
>>>> think the current U.S. laws favor a higher success rate than in
>>>> Australia
>>>> because
>>>> they (at least currently) provide enough incentive to boost the
>>>> people-hours
>>>> that get devoted to each fall.
>>>>
>>>> Best wishes,
>>>> Rob
>>>>
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