[meteorite-list] Case study: Lake Eyre meteorite vs. U.S.

Wed Jan 20 15:06:15 EST 2016

Exact wording from BLM website:

Those interested should contact the appropriate BLM office to learn details 
for their area of interest.

Can meteorites casually collected from public lands be bartered or sold?

Casual collection of meteorites from public lands is only for an 
individual's personal use. Sale or barter is considered commercial use.  A 
permit must be issued for commercial activities and fees will be collected, 
including a purchase price based on a unit price or the percentage of fair 
market value, and a reclamation fee, if required.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Michael Mulgrew" <mikestang at gmail.com>
To: "Raremeteorites" <raremeteorites at centurylink.net>
Cc: "Meteorite List" <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 20, 2016 11:45 AM
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Case study: Lake Eyre meteorite vs. U.S.

> Adam,
>
> Please cite me (and the rest of the list) the law by order and
> section.  "I saw it in a book" doesn't mean jack or shit to me.
>
> -Michael in so. Cal.
>
> On Wed, Jan 20, 2016 at 10:26 AM, Raremeteorites via Meteorite-list
> <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com> wrote:
>> A federal law is on the books about meteorites found on public land are 
>> not
>> to used for commercial purposes.  A BLM agent working the Pahrump, Nevada
>> area showed us this law in a book he pulled from his truck in the field
>> after Guido Diero asked to see the laws governing meteorites.  This is 
>> after
>> the agent questioned our team members individually to try and catch us 
>> with
>> leading questions like "how much are they worth?, how many have you 
>> sold?"
>> and so on.  Our team individually answered appropriately that they have 
>> no
>> commercial value whatsoever since they cannot be sold and that the real
>> value is scientific.
>>
>> Future generations may remember our generation as the one that screwed
>> everything up by publicly placing a monetary value on meteorites and
>> attracting the attention of unelected federal and state lawmakers.  The
>> Great Late Richard Norton warned this would happen decades ago.
>>
>> Adam
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Mulgrew" 
>> <mikestang at gmail.com>
>> To: "Raremeteorites" <raremeteorites at centurylink.net>
>> Cc: "Meteorite List" <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
>> Sent: Wednesday, January 20, 2016 9:55 AM
>> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Case study: Lake Eyre meteorite vs. U.S.
>>
>>
>> Except that there are no laws concerning meteorites and the infamous
>> "BLM order" expired Sep. 30, 2013.
>>
>> Like Larry wrote previously, the permit and the process was a joke - a
>> series of hoops to be jumped through and when I got to the last hoop
>> they kept moving it further away.  I don't think they expected anyone
>> to even make it as far as I did.
>>
>> We don't need to worry about the first American Lunar, it will 100% be
>> found on private property.
>>
>> -Michael in so. Cal.
>>
>> On Tue, Jan 19, 2016 at 10:38 AM, Raremeteorites via Meteorite-list
>> <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> I agree with what you said about the laws not being enforced but they 
>>> are
>>> still on the books and most likely will never come off.  I have not been
>>> hassled recently and the last time was in the same period as Met-Men.
>>> Apparently the BLM thought meteorites were lying around like Easter eggs 
>>> and
>>> people were becoming rich from them so they needed more laws to protect
>>> people from making any form of profit.  There is also no statue of
>>> limitations on federal laws so when somebody finds that North American
>>> Lunar, they can go back in time to bolster their case.
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Larry Atkins" <thetoprok at aol.com>
>>> To: <raremeteorites at centurylink.net>;
>>> <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
>>> Sent: Monday, January 18, 2016 8:22 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Case study: Lake Eyre meteorite vs. U.S.
>>>
>>>
>>> Hi Adam,
>>>
>>> What I said is true. Unenforced laws are meaningless. A warning or
>>> whatever. really doesn't add up to anything of substance, and without 
>>> actual
>>> charges or at least a ticket, it's just words.
>>>
>>> I'm guessing, only guessing, the incidents you mentioned happened 
>>> during,
>>> or just after the peak of the" Met Men" series, when the BLM was on a
>>> mission to keep us from making all that 'easy money'. I'd bet those same
>>> officers watching eBay have tired of the activity and moved on to bigger
>>> fish long ago. Not much to get uptight about on eBay regarding American
>>> meteorites "poached" from state or federal land. It wouldn't take long 
>>> for
>>> them to figure out that monitoring eBay is a nonstarter, not enough 
>>> money to
>>> merit the effort. The crater is the exception but that's a whole other
>>> topic.
>>>
>>> I spend a lot of time in the field, thousands of hours, and I have hard
>>> core meteorite hunting buddies pounding the ground for thousands of 
>>> hours
>>> per year without incident. Every single officer I've come into contact 
>>> with
>>> was aware of what I was doing and never once have I had an issue. Some 
>>> day
>>> if we ever  get together we can share some stories.
>>>
>>> As far as artifacts and fossils go you are correct, but only to a point.
>>> You can surface collect in most areas as far as I know. I can pick up
>>> fossils all day long, no one cares until I find 'Sue'. The same will 
>>> hold
>>> true for meteorites, no one is gonna care until I recover the first 
>>> North
>>> American Lunar.
>>>
>>> The heat has cooled off. Relax,, Smile and go find some rocks bro. : )
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Sincerely,
>>> Larry Atkins
>>>
>>> IMCA # 1941
>>> Ebay alienrockfarm
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Raremeteorites via Meteorite-list
>>> <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
>>> To: meteorite-list <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
>>> Sent: Mon, Jan 18, 2016 7:02 pm
>>> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Case study: Lake Eyre meteorite vs. U.S.
>>>
>>> I wish what you said was true.  Our entire group was hassled around the
>>> Pahrump area in Nevada and twice in California.  Eight of our team 
>>> members
>>> were threatened (warned) and I know others on the List who have been
>>> hassled
>>> as well.  Two agents based out Barstow went as far as saying they know
>>> what
>>> is being sold on eBay.  We were told that some public land is designated
>>> as
>>> heritage or areas of areas of critical concern which are completely off
>>> limits while metal detectors cannot be used in other areas.  I cannot 
>>> find
>>> any source which lists these areas so an agent can determine this in 
>>> field
>>> so be careful.  Just ask artifact and fossils hunters what happened with
>>> their once-fine avocation including the fellow who found "Sue" the
>>> dinosaur.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Larry Atkins" <thetoprok at aol.com>
>>> To: <raremeteorites at centurylink.net>;
>>> <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
>>> Sent: Monday, January 18, 2016 4:38 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Case study: Lake Eyre meteorite vs. U.S.
>>>
>>>
>>> Hi Adam, All,
>>>
>>> This may be true but it is very rarely if ever enforced, rendering the
>>> laws
>>> meaningless. BLM got all excited a couple years ago but it came to
>>> nothing,
>>> ask Michael Mulgrew how his application went. It's a joke. The people
>>> enforcing the laws of our wild lands have better things to do than 
>>> hassle
>>> rock hounds. In my sixteen years of hunting and occasional selling I've
>>> never heard of, or experienced trouble. In fact, I've encountered law
>>> enforcement of all types while in the field, told them exactly what I 
>>> was
>>> doing, talked money and everything, and all they say is "Good luck! Have 
>>> a
>>> great day!"
>>>
>>> Sell your rocks if you want, business as usual.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Sincerely,
>>> Larry Atkins
>>>
>>> IMCA # 1941
>>> Ebay alienrockfarm
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Raremeteorites via Meteorite-list
>>> <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
>>> To: meteorite-list <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
>>> Sent: Mon, Jan 18, 2016 3:38 pm
>>> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Case study: Lake Eyre meteorite vs. U.S.
>>>
>>> I agree with everything you stated with the exception of response 2 
>>> where
>>> you state private citizens can profit from meteorite finds here in the
>>> United States.  It is against federal and most state laws to use
>>> meteorites
>>> found on public land for commercial purposes meaning that the finder is
>>> not
>>> allowed to sell anything they find.  Private citizen are prohibited from
>>> making a profit without a permit which will never be issued.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> 2) If private citizens were prohibited from profiting from the recovery 
>>> of
>>> meteorites,
>>> would you expect a negative impact on the quantity of recovered material
>>> from a
>>> new fall? I think this is undeniable, and therefore it certainly follows
>>> that the total
>>> mass deposited with accredited institutions would suffer. And it's not
>>> just
>>> the
>>> quantity, it's the quality. A meteorite recovered within 24 hours of a
>>> fall
>>> is obviously
>>> more scientifically valuable than one recovered a month later, when
>>> terrestrial
>>> weathering has altered some rare minerals, and short-lived radioisotopes
>>> have
>>> decayed below the threshold of detectability.
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Matson, Rob D. via Meteorite-list"
>>> <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
>>> To: <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
>>> Sent: Monday, January 18, 2016 12:12 PM
>>> Subject: [meteorite-list] Case study: Lake Eyre meteorite vs. U.S.
>>>
>>>
>>> Hi Ian,
>>>
>>> Since you brought up the Creston fall, presumably as a comparison 
>>> example
>>> against
>>> current Australian state policies, I feel some counter-commentary is
>>> appropriate.
>>>
>>>> Creston is a example of where things went a bit pair shaped in my mind
>>>> for
>>>> science.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> In my opinion, Creston was really no stranger than Sutter's Mill, 
>>> Novato,
>>> Battle Mountain,
>>> Mifflin or Ash Creek. Science has been well served by all of these 
>>> falls.
>>>
>>>> USA had a private network of cameras setup that captured the fireball, 
>>>> a
>>>> private individual
>>>> and some others extracted that meteorite, the first piece(s) was then 
>>>> on
>>>> sold. Finally it
>>>> was sold for a ridiculous price. Not illegal or immoral......just not
>>>> ideal
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I think what you are getting at is that only a small fraction of each of
>>> these falls made
>>> it into the hands of researchers. There are a couple points to consider:
>>>
>>> (1) How much material do researchers really need to extract the majority
>>> of
>>> pertinent
>>> scientific data from a fall? Sure, if you had infinite time you'd love 
>>> to
>>> have all of it since
>>> the individual meteorites from a fall are not necessarily homogenous.
>>> (Case
>>> in point:
>>> Almahata Sitta). But balanced against this is the question of how much
>>> more
>>> you're
>>> going to learn by analyzing all of the stones from an L6 fall.
>>>
>>> (2) If private citizens were prohibited from profiting from the recovery
>>> of
>>> meteorites,
>>> would you expect a negative impact on the quantity of recovered material
>>> from a
>>> new fall? I think this is undeniable, and therefore it certainly follows
>>> that the total
>>> mass deposited with accredited institutions would suffer. And it's not
>>> just
>>> the
>>> quantity, it's the quality. A meteorite recovered within 24 hours of a
>>> fall
>>> is obviously
>>> more scientifically valuable than one recovered a month later, when
>>> terrestrial
>>> weathering has altered some rare minerals, and short-lived radioisotopes
>>> have
>>> decayed below the threshold of detectability.
>>>
>>> (3) Successful meteorite recovery requires a significant skill set AND
>>> considerable
>>> expenditures of time and money. In the U.S., I expect that more than 95%
>>> of
>>> the
>>> annual resources made available through government grants to recover
>>> meteorites
>>> goes to ANSMET. I've spent thousands of unpaid hours on the analysis of
>>> nearly
>>> all U.S. falls that have occurred in the last 15 years, as well as a
>>> number
>>> of falls
>>> outside America, and have devoted a not insignificant amount of time and
>>> money
>>> traveling to many of these places to recover meteorites. On each of 
>>> these
>>> expeditions I tend to encounter the same couple dozen of dedicated
>>> individuals --
>>> names that would all be familiar to anyone on the Meteorite List. On
>>> occasion I have
>>> seen other scientists "in the field," but I suspect in most cases it was
>>> on
>>> their
>>> own dime and not in an official paid capacity. Meteoriticists are paid 
>>> to
>>> analyze
>>> meteorites, not run around the country recovering them.
>>>
>>>> Now in Australia, we do have an likely issue of finds being hidden ( 
>>>> old
>>>> falls and
>>>> cold finds) due to our state laws. However this material will just add 
>>>> to
>>>> the 50,000
>>>> stones we need to know more about. Where these laws are a benefit is 
>>>> that
>>>> when
>>>> our DFN etc detects a fall, scientists (not private hunters looking for
>>>> profit or cost
>>>> recovery) will go out grab the stone and bring it back!
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Perhaps in Australia this happens. I have not seen evidence that this is
>>> the
>>> case
>>> in the U.S.  Researchers have access to the same information that I do:
>>> Doppler
>>> radar, seismic networks, all-sky cameras, internet posts, the AMS 
>>> website
>>> and
>>> a dozen other resources. Nothing other than time and funding is stopping
>>> them
>>> from competing with private citizens.
>>>
>>>> We will know where it came from, where it landed, who found it, what it
>>>> is
>>>> and
>>>> where it will stay exactly. With much more than just a classification
>>>> but,
>>>> rare orbit
>>>> data - which is contributing greatly to mapping our solar system and
>>>> more!
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Well, we got all of that on both Sutter's Mill and Creston, in spite of
>>> the
>>> problems
>>> of private land ownership and considerably harder searching conditions
>>> than
>>> the
>>> almost ideal surfaces of the Australian outback. So both systems can 
>>> work.
>>> I
>>> just
>>> think the current U.S. laws favor a higher success rate than in 
>>> Australia
>>> because
>>> they (at least currently) provide enough incentive to boost the
>>> people-hours
>>> that get devoted to each fall.
>>>
>>> Best wishes,
>>> Rob
>>>
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>>
>>
>>
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> 