[meteorite-list] Auction Kings ( PROVENANCE COA's )

Fri Mar 23 17:00:08 EDT 2012

Hi John,

Some specimen cards or COA's would be easier to counterfeit than
others.  The best one I have seen, in regards to difficulty to
duplicate, would be the cards issued by Martin Altmann and Stefan
Ralew.  Their specimen card is very glossy and professional, but it
also has an embedded hologram.  This adds an extra element of
difficulty to reproducing their cards and would act as a solid
deterrent.

Truthfully, I don't issue COA's (or even specimen cards) with the vast
majority of my specimens for one reason - cost.  The bulk of my sales
are specks, crumbs, and tiny pieces that cost $10 or less.  It's just
not financially viable for me to produce cards and COA's for every
little micro I sell.  At the rate I sell micros, I would need
thousands of them over the course of time, and I just cannot afford
the expense.  When I have to choose between putting gas in my truck
(or food in my belly) and ordering up a batch of specimen cards to be
custom made, I have to pick the former.  I operate on razor-thin
margins and this is how I feed my family.  I don't have a day job or
income outside of meteorites.  Also, my inventory has such a high
turnover rate, that a meteorite I have in stock today might be gone
tomorrow and might never be offered again.  And I am a man of
opportunity, most of my acquisitions are based on opportunity alone
and are not planned.  I have no idea what I will be offering tomorrow
or next week.  Frankly, I am flying by the seat of my pants.

I'm not saying what I do is best or should be emulated by others.  By
the time I figure in the cost of packing-shipping materials (bubble
mailers, baggies, gemjars, printer paper/ink, mailing labels) and
other stuff like business cards, I am already spending about $2 on
packaging each $5 micromount.  Figure in PayPal fees and the profit
gets even smaller.  I have to draw a line somewhere and I draw it at
COA's and specimen cards.  Not to mention the 20% off coupons I throw
around on the web.

Every micro I sell comes in a 1.25" gemjar that has a paper label
inside.  The paper label states the meteorite name, locality, type,
and my URL/name.  That small piece of paper, is for all intents and
purposes my specimen card.  On larger or higher-dollar specimens, I do
offer specimen cards.  Or, if I am reselling a specimen I bought from
another dealer, I pass along the original specimen card or a copy of
it.  Also, if a buyer requests it, I will provide a specimen card (of
the conventional type) for any micro I sell.  Most buyers don't
request it.

I am aware that I lose potential buyers because of how I present my
meteorites in a spartan way.  I have had several collectors contact me
privately and tell me this.  Honestly, I am not trying to compete with
the big guys, the Hupes, Farmer, Cottingham, or any of you veteran
dealers.  I don't have the financial ability to compete and I have no
desire either.  I am quite happy in the small niche I have carved out
for myself.  I have a cadre of repeat customers who like what I offer
and they come back again and again.  If they are happy, then I am
happy. They know what I offer, and if they want a big specimen, they
go elsewhere.  I often refer them to the other dealers for those big
specimens that I cannot offer.  Some of those other dealers might be
quite surprised how many sales I have referred to them.  :)

John, I know you have a background in anthropology, and that plays
right into what you are saying about provenance.  I understand that
and cannot disagree at all.  I'd really like to see some kind of
solution to the problem of authenticity and if there is a universal
solution that I can afford to participate in, I will.  In the
meantime, the best "COA" is buying from a dealer with a solid
reputation.  This Met List is a good way to check authenticity or the
reputation of any dealer.  If someone has a question or concern, they
can post here and get qualified opinions from dozens of veteran
dealers and collectors.  Some of those veterans might say - don't buy
from that Mike Gilmer guy.  He is an a-hole who deals crumbs.  They
might be right about that.  But, every crumb is legit and I do my best
to maintain the integrity of every specimen that passes through my
hands.  I keep detailed records and I can account for every speck I
have.

I too have a passion for meteorites and I don't do this just to put
food on the table.  The ability to make a living from this is an
extension of that passion. So I do care about my specimens and their
authenticity - but I rarely issue COA's or specimen cards.

Best regards,

MikeG

-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
Galactic Stone & Ironworks - MikeG

Web: http://www.galactic-stone.com
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/galacticstone
Twitter: http://twitter.com/GalacticStone
RSS: http://www.galactic-stone.com/rss/126516
-----------------------------------------------------------

On 3/23/12, John higgins <geohiggins at yahoo.com> wrote:
> Hi Mike and List,
>
>
> What a great response, thanks for that. I greatly appreciate your comments.
> Mike I really love and enjoy buying your meteorites and they all come with
> ID cards.
> You always give a nice one, I think this debate comes down to the
> confusion over what is a ID card, compared to what is a COA and the umbrella
> of
> provenance it all falls under.
>
> I really feel that the paper adds a Cultural and Historical dimension to
> otherwise what would only be a Scientific object.
>
> It's important because the provenance can help add to the scientific value
> as well, it's like a tracking number. And can help you find out more
> information about the specimen in the future if you want to find out more.
> Now this is where a standardized data form comes into play and would
> immediately add value to all meteorites sold in the future. Wouldn't it be
> worth it to have some of the historical background as to how the meteorite
> came about other than what is stored on the meteoritical society data base?
> What if Joe Schmo ends up with a rare meteorite that originated from another
> collection and it looks a little funny, what should you be expected to do,
> test every specimen or trust the Provenance that comes with it? You have to
> then make a judgment call, first you evaluate who is Joe Schmo? Then you
> evaluate all the documents as well as the story that comes along with it. Or
> like you said you can already know Joe Schmoe and trust the guy or not.
>
> Now you say it's a big world of all different kinds of people looking to buy
> meteorites.
>
> Sure there is a BIG WORLD of meteorite collectors from every echelon of
> existence. It's fine if you want to focus on the newbies or those who don't
> know enough about provenance and reputation or those that don't even care.
> It's a free World, thank God last time I checked, people are free to choose
> to and do whatever they want at least for the most part in some countries.
> But don't you want to stand out among and impress all the advanced
> collectors and buyers that do care? That's a huge percentage of potential
> customers that your shafting by not providing supporting documentation. That
> why I think COA's, ID, Provenance whatever you choose to call it should be
> provided with each and every specimen. It might not add value for everybody,
> but it will to the ones who care, and I don't think there is a shortage of
> collectors who are passionate and care enough to say it's important.
>
>
> You say, sure anyone can scan and copy and make a fake COA, but I don't
> think it's that easy, how can you get the same paper, the same patina that
> you only get with age on that paper? I truly beg to differ on this. And if
> your worried about someone copying your COA then you should go the extra
> mile to make it copy deterrent. You are only hurting yourself if you make a
> flimsy photocopy that someone can easily duplicate. That all comes back
> round to your reputation.
>
> That should be your job as the seller to make sure you customer is confident
> that they are getting what you say. I don't think this is a valid excuse to
> say because it can be copied it should not be done, you can easily make a
> excuse for anything, that doesn't make it right.
>
>
> I know there is great confusion about the differences between a Specimen
> Card, ID Card, COA.
>
> In my opinion they all fall under the same umbrella, provenance.
>
> I see the paper as the dealers reputation, when they do a good job on the
> COA, it shows me they care, they want to go the extra mile for the
> collector. I like that.
>
>
> The extreme position you can take for being against COA's.
> "We know where the specimen comes from, Outer Space."
>
> But I think that statement can turn into another argument in and of itself.
> It sells the meteorite short in my opinion.
>
>
> I like to buy from dealers who care about presentation, don't mind spending
> a extra few minutes to build that WOW factor that nobody no matter how hard
> they try can duplicate.
>
>
> I agree with you Mike, when I get those packages in the zip-lock with no ID
> card or anything. It makes me wanna cry.
> makes me want to yell at the top of my lungs:
>
> SHOW SOME RESPECT FOR THE CULTURE AND THE SCIENCE!
>
> I urge other dealers to take the extra steps to advance our COA's together
> we can elevate meteorite collecting to the next level, and put our
> meteorites where they belong up on the pedestal.
>
> Yes you can say I'm passionate about meteorites in every respect.
>
>
> Sincerely Best Regards,
> John Higgins
> ww.outerspacerocks.com
> IMCA# 9822
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
>  From: Michael Gilmer <meteoritemike at gmail.com>
> To: John higgins <geohiggins at yahoo.com>
> Cc: "meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com"
> <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
> Sent: Friday, March 23, 2012 3:25 PM
> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Auction Kings ( PROVENANCE COA's )
>
>
> Hi John and List,
>
> I was not knocking any dealer's reputation, just expressing an opinion
> about COA's in general.  I think we are blurring the line here between
> a specimen card and a COA.  I like specimen cards.  I am indifferent
> towards COA's.
>
> For example, you say that a meteorite from a well-known dealer is
> worth more than a similar meteorite offered by a lesser-known dealer.
> This is true to some extent, but that increase in worth comes from the
> seller of the meteorite and not the piece of paper that came with it.
> For example, an unscrupulous collector or dealer could easily forge a
> Hupe or Farmer specimen card.  This is not US currency we are talking
> about that has built-in safeguards against counterfeiting.  All it
> would take to turn any meteorite into a Hupe or Farmer meteorite is a
> laser printer, card stock paper, and Photoshop.  Or, easier yet, a
> scanner.  Scan an original specimen card and Photoshop in whatever
> details you want.  This is not rocket science and most 12 year olds
> are computer savvy enough to do this.
>
> This is where provenance and dealer reputation is of the utmost
> importance, and neither of those things hinge solely on a piece of
> paper or cardstock.  Everyone knows Bob Haag and the Hupes, and we all
> know they abide by the highest standards.  They would never pass off a
> misrepresented meteorite and if they say they acquired it originally
> from collector X or dealer X, then you can take their word on it.  The
> COA or specimen card is secondary.
>
> Ironic thing is, the perceived increased value of a meteorite that
> comes from a well-known dealer is only valid with knowledgeable
> buyers.  A newbie who doesn't know a Hupe from John Smith and doesn't
> know or care where it came from, or chain of custody, or authenticity.
> I've bought specimens from you, the Hupes, Farmer, and dozens of
> other dealers and turned around and flipped those specimens for a
> profit - I am lesser known than those dealers, yet I realized a higher
> price for the specimen.  Why?  Because the market is a fickle mistress
> and there are a million buyers out there from newbies to veterans and
> each buyer has different criteria concerning what they regard as
> valuable.   If I buy a slice of meteorite from you and then try to
> resell that slice, is it worth less or more?  Who decides?  I can
> offer it for X dollars and I may or may not get that price.  It's up
> to the buyer to decide whether or not the specimen is worth the money.
> That is why the gentleman on Auction Kings paid $2000 for a $200
> specimen and thought he got a great deal.  If he's happy, then he did.
>
> I'm not knocking any dealer, specimen cards, or provenance.  What I am
> knocking is COA's for meteorites.  There is no governing body, not
> even the IMCA, that can grade or authenticate any meteorite with
> authority and then provide a COA that has any real meaning.  That may
> change one day, but as of right now it's true.  Give me any dealer's
> COA and I can reproduce a copy of it that is indistinguishable from
> the original.  And that is the danger with COA's - they provide a
> false sense of security regarding the specimen's authenticity.
>
> The best safeguard against buying a fake or misrepresented meteorite
> is to buy only from reputable dealers - and buyers discover who those
> dealers are by doing their homework and by gaining experience with the
> market.  I may be a "lesser known" dealer, but my track record is
> spotless regarding authenticity and will always remain so, because
> whether I am liked or not, my specimens are exactly what I say they
> are - from the tiniest speck to the biggest iron.
>
> I won't name names, but a few of the "well known" dealers do exactly
> what you say you don't like - they throw a specimen in a ziploc
> baggie, write on the baggie with a sharpie, and provide no specimen
> card or COA.  When I first encountered this years ago, I was very
> surprised.  I once bought a $1000 slice of Seymchanpallasite that
> came in a plain bubble mailer with no receipt, no card, no COA, and no
> packaging material to protect it.  I was amazed that it arrived
> undamaged through USPS with no insurance or tracking.  This was from a
> very well-known dealer, member of this List, IMCA member, and someone
> who was recently in the media.  Needless to say, I haven't bought
> anything from that person since and probably will not buy from them
> again ever.  I was lucky my specimen didn't get lost or damaged.
>
> John, I do agree with you 100% that all dealers should get together
> and provide some kind of standardized COA or authentication regime -
> it would greatly improve the integrity of the market.  But,
> implementing such a regime would be problematic and I think that is
> why we have not seen this happen yet.  For example, is a specimen
> really Zulu Queen, or just an NWA L-type chondrite?  Who can tell?
> Only lab-work will tell, and not even the most trained eye can
> authenticate most meteorites.  Until we find someone who has an
> electron microprobe and is willing to use that instrument for free to
> authenticate meteorites for us, then we are stuck with using visual
> comparisons and tracing chain of custody/provenance - and the honor
> system.
>
> Having said all of that, let me state that I am greatly impressed with
> the presentation of your meteorites.  Your specimen card/COA is very
> nice and professional looking.  The custom baggies you use, the
> labels, and all the inserts are top-notch.  Heck, they are better than
> 99% of the other big dealers who are more well-known.  I'm not
> knocking you or anyone else for providing such materials with their
> specimens.  I am simply stating that any card or piece of paper cannot
> guarantee that a given meteorite is real.
>
> Best regards,
>
> MikeG
>
> PS - FWIW, I collect specimen cards.  I have a 3-ring binder full of
> them, hundreds of them from almost every dealer on the planet.  :)
>
> --
> -----------------------------------------------------------
> Galactic Stone & Ironworks - MikeG
>
> Web: http://www.galactic-stone.com
> Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/galacticstone
> Twitter: http://twitter.com/GalacticStone
> RSS: http://www.galactic-stone.com/rss/126516
> -----------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On 3/23/12, John higgins <geohiggins at yahoo.com> wrote:
>> Hi Mike, Adam, and List,
>> Interesting opinions.
>>
>> You guys touched on a major issue in the Meteorite Community, and there
>> are
>> parts of your statements I don't agree with. I would really like to share
>> how I feel about the subject.
>>
>> First of all Mike you said,
>>
>> " I thought this was laughable for obvious
>> reasons and a man who runs an auction house should know that 99% of
>> COA's are not worth the paper they are printed on.  I can go outside,
>> grab a rock from my driveway, and print up an official-looking COA for
>> it."
>>
>> Mike with all due respect, I don't agree with this. Why would you try to
>> knock a dealers reputation? For example a meteorite sold by Mike Farmer or
>> Greg Hupe is worth more than a meteorite that is sold without any
>> provenance
>> or COA.
>>
>> For example lets say unknown dealer X is selling a Howardite, and well
>> known
>> dealer Y is selling the same Howardite. Who do you think is going to
>> realize
>> a higher price? The well know dealer.
>>
>> Now if that meteorite losses it's COA from the dealer who sold it, what
>> happens? Usually the meteorite immediately looses value, how can you
>> explain
>> this if the COA is not worth the paper it's printed on?
>>
>> For example a meteorite said to be from from the Bob Hagg collection
>> without
>> Bob's paperwork has a much lower value than a meteorite from the Bob Hagg
>> collection with his COA right?
>>
>> So please extrapolate exactly what you mean and how you come to this
>> conclusion. I strongly disagree with your opinion. Much of the value in
>> meteorites is locked up in the provenance and not the meteorite itself in
>> my
>> opinion.
>>
>> I think what is much too overlooked is that a meteorite dealers reputation
>> is the most important factor in meteorite prices. That includes the
>> following they create, the friends they make, impressions that collectors
>> get all translate into value and that it why most collectors demand
>> individual COA's be issued with each meteorite sold. I think this makes a
>> lot of sense because the process it takes to build a good reputation takes
>> years. The piece of paper adds value. Of course a paper from Hagg is worth
>> more than a COA from Joe Schmo. But to say the paper has no value is the
>> most insane thing I ever heard. How else would you know if your buying
>> pedigree meteorites from dealers who stand for integrity, honor and strive
>> to provide the customer the best experience. A lot of new comers think
>> that
>> the value is in the meteorite itself, and then when they try to sell them,
>> they are greatly let down and wonder why their meteorites don't fetch the
>> same price that
>>  the other more well known dealers get all day long. Because it comes down
>> to more than just the meteorite itself and taking it for face value. You
>> fail to consider the amount of friends the advanced dealers had made over
>> the years, the networking they have done and the awareness they have
>> created
>> about their meteorite and the way they are presented. And most importantly
>> the way they make their customers feel is the most important factor to me.
>>
>> Is it just a roughly cut rock, sloppily thrown in a bag with a sharpie
>> marking? OR IS IT A EXPERIENCE FOR THE CUSTOMER? The experience adds
>> value,
>> making the customer feel good is an integral part of any business, even
>> meteorite dealing. The COA and provenance conveys that feeling to the
>> customer. It makes them say WOW! I can't wait to see what this dealer has
>> to
>> offer me next. It gives them something to hold onto other than just the
>> meteorite itself. Sure you can put on narrow vision goggles and only focus
>> on the meteorite itself, throwing everything else away and assigning
>> absolutely no value as to how the meteorite ended up where it is, but I
>> don't think that's a very scientific approach. It's all part of the story
>> and how you ended up with the specimen is a big part of meteorites and
>> collecting.
>>
>> I for one get very depressed when I buy a meteorite on eBay and it comes
>> with no card! What happens if I lose the bag it's in or the marking wears
>> off? what happens to the specimen, the value drops to 0. Cant sell it
>> because you don't know what it is. And if you ever do want to sell it, how
>> can you prove where it came from. The COA answers a lot of those
>> questions,
>> sure you can explain to kingdom come what it is, but it wont prove the
>> origin for the 99% of meteorite collectors who demand provenance, and I
>> don't blame them one bit. The value to any assigned meteorite is less
>> without the papers.
>>
>> Now I will admit, it can all come down to perspective, when your dealing
>> with small micro fragments, I sympathize with your view Mike, it's not
>> worth
>> the time or the expense to make a COA, but you can always give something,
>> even a little piece of paper I hope, to say it came from you and what it
>> is.
>> Maybe comparing a micro to a macro is useless and it's like comparing
>> Apples
>> to Oranges... Two totally different perspectives that are neither right or
>> wrong just are what they are, each of us our own independent opinions.
>>
>> Adam you said,
>>
>> " A properly papered item will almost always bring in the big
>>  bucks in an auction house whereas it may not do so well on eBay where
>>  some dealers tend to print their own COAs and grade items themselves."
>>
>> Adam, with all due respect, I don't understand this statement, where do
>> you
>> and your COA's fit into the picture? Don't you print the COA and
>> describe/grade the meteorites you sell and classify? Sounds like you would
>> be hesitant to buy meteorites from yourself? I think comparing baseball
>> cards and antiques that hold cultural value to meteorites that hold both
>> cultural and scientific value, is like comparing Apples to Oranges.
>>
>> To Everyone,
>> I would like to go one step further, I urge the meteorite community at
>> large
>> to consider standardizing COA's and provenance. Each dealer should still
>> have his/her own unique style but there should be a simple standardized
>> field of data provided for each specimen. This will promote the science of
>> studying them, adding value to all of our collections in the future.
>>
>> Thanks for taking the time to hear my opinion, Have a Great Day!
>> Best Regards,
>> John Higgins
>> www.outerspacerocks.com
>> IMCA # 9822
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ________________________________
>> From: Michael Gilmer <meteoritemike at gmail.com>
>> To: Adam Hupe <raremeteorites at yahoo.com>
>> Cc: Adam <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
>> Sent: Friday, March 23, 2012 11:51 AM
>> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Auction Kings meteorite - $2000 SikhoteAlin
>>
>> Hi Adam and List,
>>
>> Some good points there.
>>
>> About COA's - even if a COA comes from a trusted grading or
>> certification firm, the value in the COA is not the COA itself, it is
>> the name of the grading or certification service on it that is known
>> to collectors of that particular type of collectible.  If you buy a
>> rare collectible and the COA says "Confirmed authentic by Acme
>> Certification Services, Walla Walla Washington, Serial number
>> #123456", then the value of the certificate is that the buyer or
>> potential buyer can contact Acme Services, have them check their
>> database and confirm that the item in question is indeed genuine.
>> However, anyone can print a piece of paper that looks like it came
>> from Acme Certification Services and the ruse will only be exposed if
>> the buyer follows up on the info printed on the COA.   The COA itself
>> is worthless.
>>
>> In the world of meteorites, there is no certification service or
>> central authority that can be relied upon to authenticate meteorites.
>> Without an authoritative body backing a COA, it's just a pretty piece
>> of paper.
>>
>> Otherwise, I agree 100% with the other things you said.  :)
>>
>> Best regards,
>>
>> MikeG
>> --
>> -----------------------------------------------------------
>> Galactic Stone & Ironworks - MikeG
>>
>> Web: http://www.galactic-stone.com
>> Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/galacticstone
>> Twitter: http://twitter.com/GalacticStone
>> RSS: http://www.galactic-stone.com/rss/126516
>> -----------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>
>>
>> On 3/23/12, Adam Hupe <raremeteorites at yahoo.com> wrote:
>>> A lot of buyers judge the price of collectable items from eBay.  EBay is
>>> not known for fetching top dollar, especially on collectables.  A solid
>>> auction house will almost always fetch more than what would be realized
>>> on eBay.  The problem with many auction houses is that their commissions
>>> are
>>> out of line, some charging in excess of 40%! Then some fleece the
>>> buyers with expensive shipping and handling fees.
>>>
>>> Don't get me wrong, there are a few great auction companies out there, I
>>> have used some of them.  One problem I encountered is that if the item
>>> doesn't sell or the buyer can't pay for the item after bidding on it,
>>> then the seller can be out of some serious money including catalog and
>>> no-sell fees.  They need to do a better job of vetting their bidders!
>>>
>>> A lot of dealers don't bother with middle men anymore since they can get
>>> wholesale prices right off of eBay.  Some specialty shops get most of
>>> there product from eBay, mark it up considerably and put it on their
>>> shelves. The problem is that a lot the collectable items offered on eBay
>>> have no expertise behind them and are accidentally or purposely
>>> misrepresented.
>>>
>>> There are reputable independent companies that can authenticate and paper
>>> items so COAs  are important to me.  I wouldn't purchase a valuable
>>> coin, baseball card or any other collectable without first seeing that
>>> it has been papered through an independent grading and certificate
>>> service.  A properly papered item will almost always bring in the big
>>> bucks in an auction house whereas it may not do so well on eBay where
>>> some dealers tend to print their own COAs and grade items themselves.
>>>
>>> Kind Regards and Happy Collecting,
>>>
>>> Adam
>>> ______________________________________________
>>>
>>> Visit the Archives at
>>> http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html
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>>> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com
>>> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
>>>
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