[meteorite-list] Auction Kings ( PROVENANCE COA's )

[Michael Gilmer]

Hi John and List,

I was not knocking any dealer's reputation, just expressing an opinion
about COA's in general.  I think we are blurring the line here between
a specimen card and a COA.  I like specimen cards.  I am indifferent
towards COA's.

For example, you say that a meteorite from a well-known dealer is
worth more than a similar meteorite offered by a lesser-known dealer.
This is true to some extent, but that increase in worth comes from the
seller of the meteorite and not the piece of paper that came with it.
For example, an unscrupulous collector or dealer could easily forge a
Hupe or Farmer specimen card.  This is not US currency we are talking
about that has built-in safeguards against counterfeiting.  All it
would take to turn any meteorite into a Hupe or Farmer meteorite is a
laser printer, card stock paper, and Photoshop.  Or, easier yet, a
scanner.  Scan an original specimen card and Photoshop in whatever
details you want.  This is not rocket science and most 12 year olds
are computer savvy enough to do this.

This is where provenance and dealer reputation is of the utmost
importance, and neither of those things hinge solely on a piece of
paper or cardstock.  Everyone knows Bob Haag and the Hupes, and we all
know they abide by the highest standards.  They would never pass off a
misrepresented meteorite and if they say they acquired it originally
from collector X or dealer X, then you can take their word on it.  The
COA or specimen card is secondary.

Ironic thing is, the perceived increased value of a meteorite that
comes from a well-known dealer is only valid with knowledgeable
buyers.  A newbie who doesn't know a Hupe from John Smith and doesn't
know or care where it came from, or chain of custody, or authenticity.
 I've bought specimens from you, the Hupes, Farmer, and dozens of
other dealers and turned around and flipped those specimens for a
profit - I am lesser known than those dealers, yet I realized a higher
price for the specimen.  Why?  Because the market is a fickle mistress
and there are a million buyers out there from newbies to veterans and
each buyer has different criteria concerning what they regard as
valuable.   If I buy a slice of meteorite from you and then try to
resell that slice, is it worth less or more?  Who decides?  I can
offer it for X dollars and I may or may not get that price.  It's up
to the buyer to decide whether or not the specimen is worth the money.
 That is why the gentleman on Auction Kings paid $2000 for a $200
specimen and thought he got a great deal.  If he's happy, then he did.

I'm not knocking any dealer, specimen cards, or provenance.  What I am
knocking is COA's for meteorites.  There is no governing body, not
even the IMCA, that can grade or authenticate any meteorite with
authority and then provide a COA that has any real meaning.  That may
change one day, but as of right now it's true.  Give me any dealer's
COA and I can reproduce a copy of it that is indistinguishable from
the original.  And that is the danger with COA's - they provide a
false sense of security regarding the specimen's authenticity.

The best safeguard against buying a fake or misrepresented meteorite
is to buy only from reputable dealers - and buyers discover who those
dealers are by doing their homework and by gaining experience with the
market.  I may be a "lesser known" dealer, but my track record is
spotless regarding authenticity and will always remain so, because
whether I am liked or not, my specimens are exactly what I say they
are - from the tiniest speck to the biggest iron.

I won't name names, but a few of the "well known" dealers do exactly
what you say you don't like - they throw a specimen in a ziploc
baggie, write on the baggie with a sharpie, and provide no specimen
card or COA.  When I first encountered this years ago, I was very
surprised.  I once bought a $1000 slice of Seymchan pallasite that
came in a plain bubble mailer with no receipt, no card, no COA, and no
packaging material to protect it.  I was amazed that it arrived
undamaged through USPS with no insurance or tracking.  This was from a
very well-known dealer, member of this List, IMCA member, and someone
who was recently in the media.  Needless to say, I haven't bought
anything from that person since and probably will not buy from them
again ever.  I was lucky my specimen didn't get lost or damaged.

John, I do agree with you 100% that all dealers should get together
and provide some kind of standardized COA or authentication regime -
it would greatly improve the integrity of the market.  But,
implementing such a regime would be problematic and I think that is
why we have not seen this happen yet.  For example, is a specimen
really Zulu Queen, or just an NWA L-type chondrite?  Who can tell?
Only lab-work will tell, and not even the most trained eye can
authenticate most meteorites.  Until we find someone who has an
electron microprobe and is willing to use that instrument for free to
authenticate meteorites for us, then we are stuck with using visual
comparisons and tracing chain of custody/provenance - and the honor
system.

Having said all of that, let me state that I am greatly impressed with
the presentation of your meteorites.  Your specimen card/COA is very
nice and professional looking.  The custom baggies you use, the
labels, and all the inserts are top-notch.  Heck, they are better than
99% of the other big dealers who are more well-known.  I'm not
knocking you or anyone else for providing such materials with their
specimens.  I am simply stating that any card or piece of paper cannot
guarantee that a given meteorite is real.

Best regards,

MikeG

PS - FWIW, I collect specimen cards.  I have a 3-ring binder full of
them, hundreds of them from almost every dealer on the planet.  :)

-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
Galactic Stone & Ironworks - MikeG

Web: http://www.galactic-stone.com
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On 3/23/12, John higgins <geohiggins at yahoo.com> wrote:
> Hi Mike, Adam, and List,
> Interesting opinions.
>
> You guys touched on a major issue in the Meteorite Community, and there are
> parts of your statements I don't agree with. I would really like to share
> how I feel about the subject.
>
> First of all Mike you said,
>
> " I thought this was laughable for obvious
> reasons and a man who runs an auction house should know that 99% of
> COA's are not worth the paper they are printed on.  I can go outside,
> grab a rock from my driveway, and print up an official-looking COA for
> it."
>
> Mike with all due respect, I don't agree with this. Why would you try to
> knock a dealers reputation? For example a meteorite sold by Mike Farmer or
> Greg Hupe is worth more than a meteorite that is sold without any provenance
> or COA.
>
> For example lets say unknown dealer X is selling a Howardite, and well known
> dealer Y is selling the same Howardite. Who do you think is going to realize
> a higher price? The well know dealer.
>
> Now if that meteorite losses it's COA from the dealer who sold it, what
> happens? Usually the meteorite immediately looses value, how can you explain
> this if the COA is not worth the paper it's printed on?
>
> For example a meteorite said to be from from the Bob Hagg collection without
> Bob's paperwork has a much lower value than a meteorite from the Bob Hagg
> collection with his COA right?
>
> So please extrapolate exactly what you mean and how you come to this
> conclusion. I strongly disagree with your opinion. Much of the value in
> meteorites is locked up in the provenance and not the meteorite itself in my
> opinion.
>
> I think what is much too overlooked is that a meteorite dealers reputation
> is the most important factor in meteorite prices. That includes the
> following they create, the friends they make, impressions that collectors
> get all translate into value and that it why most collectors demand
> individual COA's be issued with each meteorite sold. I think this makes a
> lot of sense because the process it takes to build a good reputation takes
> years. The piece of paper adds value. Of course a paper from Hagg is worth
> more than a COA from Joe Schmo. But to say the paper has no value is the
> most insane thing I ever heard. How else would you know if your buying
> pedigree meteorites from dealers who stand for integrity, honor and strive
> to provide the customer the best experience. A lot of new comers think that
> the value is in the meteorite itself, and then when they try to sell them,
> they are greatly let down and wonder why their meteorites don't fetch the
> same price that
>  the other more well known dealers get all day long. Because it comes down
> to more than just the meteorite itself and taking it for face value. You
> fail to consider the amount of friends the advanced dealers had made over
> the years, the networking they have done and the awareness they have created
> about their meteorite and the way they are presented. And most importantly
> the way they make their customers feel is the most important factor to me.
>
> Is it just a roughly cut rock, sloppily thrown in a bag with a sharpie
> marking? OR IS IT A EXPERIENCE FOR THE CUSTOMER? The experience adds value,
> making the customer feel good is an integral part of any business, even
> meteorite dealing. The COA and provenance conveys that feeling to the
> customer. It makes them say WOW! I can't wait to see what this dealer has to
> offer me next. It gives them something to hold onto other than just the
> meteorite itself. Sure you can put on narrow vision goggles and only focus
> on the meteorite itself, throwing everything else away and assigning
> absolutely no value as to how the meteorite ended up where it is, but I
> don't think that's a very scientific approach. It's all part of the story
> and how you ended up with the specimen is a big part of meteorites and
> collecting.
>
> I for one get very depressed when I buy a meteorite on eBay and it comes
> with no card! What happens if I lose the bag it's in or the marking wears
> off? what happens to the specimen, the value drops to 0. Cant sell it
> because you don't know what it is. And if you ever do want to sell it, how
> can you prove where it came from. The COA answers a lot of those questions,
> sure you can explain to kingdom come what it is, but it wont prove the
> origin for the 99% of meteorite collectors who demand provenance, and I
> don't blame them one bit. The value to any assigned meteorite is less
> without the papers.
>
> Now I will admit, it can all come down to perspective, when your dealing
> with small micro fragments, I sympathize with your view Mike, it's not worth
> the time or the expense to make a COA, but you can always give something,
> even a little piece of paper I hope, to say it came from you and what it is.
> Maybe comparing a micro to a macro is useless and it's like comparing Apples
> to Oranges... Two totally different perspectives that are neither right or
> wrong just are what they are, each of us our own independent opinions.
>
> Adam you said,
>
> " A properly papered item will almost always bring in the big
>  bucks in an auction house whereas it may not do so well on eBay where
>  some dealers tend to print their own COAs and grade items themselves."
>
> Adam, with all due respect, I don't understand this statement, where do you
> and your COA's fit into the picture? Don't you print the COA and
> describe/grade the meteorites you sell and classify? Sounds like you would
> be hesitant to buy meteorites from yourself? I think comparing baseball
> cards and antiques that hold cultural value to meteorites that hold both
> cultural and scientific value, is like comparing Apples to Oranges.
>
> To Everyone,
> I would like to go one step further, I urge the meteorite community at large
> to consider standardizing COA's and provenance. Each dealer should still
> have his/her own unique style but there should be a simple standardized
> field of data provided for each specimen. This will promote the science of
> studying them, adding value to all of our collections in the future.
>
> Thanks for taking the time to hear my opinion, Have a Great Day!
> Best Regards,
> John Higgins
> www.outerspacerocks.com
> IMCA # 9822
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Michael Gilmer <meteoritemike at gmail.com>
> To: Adam Hupe <raremeteorites at yahoo.com>
> Cc: Adam <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
> Sent: Friday, March 23, 2012 11:51 AM
> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Auction Kings meteorite - $2000 SikhoteAlin
>
> Hi Adam and List,
>
> Some good points there.
>
> About COA's - even if a COA comes from a trusted grading or
> certification firm, the value in the COA is not the COA itself, it is
> the name of the grading or certification service on it that is known
> to collectors of that particular type of collectible.  If you buy a
> rare collectible and the COA says "Confirmed authentic by Acme
> Certification Services, Walla Walla Washington, Serial number
> #123456", then the value of the certificate is that the buyer or
> potential buyer can contact Acme Services, have them check their
> database and confirm that the item in question is indeed genuine.
> However, anyone can print a piece of paper that looks like it came
> from Acme Certification Services and the ruse will only be exposed if
> the buyer follows up on the info printed on the COA.   The COA itself
> is worthless.
>
> In the world of meteorites, there is no certification service or
> central authority that can be relied upon to authenticate meteorites.
> Without an authoritative body backing a COA, it's just a pretty piece
> of paper.
>
> Otherwise, I agree 100% with the other things you said.  :)
>
> Best regards,
>
> MikeG
> --
> -----------------------------------------------------------
> Galactic Stone & Ironworks - MikeG
>
> Web: http://www.galactic-stone.com
> Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/galacticstone
> Twitter: http://twitter.com/GalacticStone
> RSS: http://www.galactic-stone.com/rss/126516
> -----------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
> On 3/23/12, Adam Hupe <raremeteorites at yahoo.com> wrote:
>> A lot of buyers judge the price of collectable items from eBay.  EBay is
>> not known for fetching top dollar, especially on collectables.  A solid
>> auction house will almost always fetch more than what would be realized
>> on eBay.  The problem with many auction houses is that their commissions
>> are
>> out of line, some charging in excess of 40%! Then some fleece the
>> buyers with expensive shipping and handling fees.
>>
>> Don't get me wrong, there are a few great auction companies out there, I
>> have used some of them.  One problem I encountered is that if the item
>> doesn't sell or the buyer can't pay for the item after bidding on it,
>> then the seller can be out of some serious money including catalog and
>> no-sell fees.  They need to do a better job of vetting their bidders!
>>
>> A lot of dealers don't bother with middle men anymore since they can get
>> wholesale prices right off of eBay.  Some specialty shops get most of
>> there product from eBay, mark it up considerably and put it on their
>> shelves. The problem is that a lot the collectable items offered on eBay
>> have no expertise behind them and are accidentally or purposely
>> misrepresented.
>>
>> There are reputable independent companies that can authenticate and paper
>> items so COAs  are important to me.  I wouldn't purchase a valuable
>> coin, baseball card or any other collectable without first seeing that
>> it has been papered through an independent grading and certificate
>> service.  A properly papered item will almost always bring in the big
>> bucks in an auction house whereas it may not do so well on eBay where
>> some dealers tend to print their own COAs and grade items themselves.
>>
>> Kind Regards and Happy Collecting,
>>
>> Adam
>> ______________________________________________
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