[meteorite-list] provenance (& AD in the PS)

[MexicoDoug]

Don wrote:

"I am sorry I even brought up provenance"

Hi Don. like I said, you had a few auctions I nearly jumped on and I 
definitely wasn't supposing anything about your high quality work.  But 
when it gets hot in the kitchen the answer isn't to leave it; it's to 
make it better.  My beef with this whole thing isn't with anyone in 
particular, you were just the messenger and everyone is in a different 
situation regarding what they know and what they are comfortable to 
disclose and people will do what that want.  Depending on what someone 
is selling, the criteria of what constitutes Grade A Prime space rocks 
''invariably change'.

My beef is with the entire direction of the market and a feeling of 
powerlessness in it.  How can I hide my feelings that if, for example 
today I want to accumulate my money for a large purchase rather than 
make several ones of lesser consequence, to stretch until it hurts and 
then some, just to have a choice piece in my collection, that I am 
forced to compete again others who have a completely different 
valuation procedure driving their decisions and effortlessly snatch it 
 from my grasp since now in the meteorite world, killing the goose that 
lays the golden eggs actually works for them, but not me.  Arrrrgh!

The result is it is difficult to find these choice pieces even paying a 
premium, usually because I don't hear about them in time and they can't 
be sold and then are cut up, and I become frustrated.  Keeping tabs on 
provenance is a great topic.  the fact that it ruffles feathers only 
points toward it being a topic of extreme importance and I hope you 
aren't really too sorry about expressing your opinion - my only 
disagreement had nothing to do with the value of provenance, but rather 
ignoring other equally convincing factors regarding the dealing with 
authentic specimens in your personal purchase decisions to value it 
appropriately, since provenance isn't infallible either in the hands of 
some of the crooks on eBay we've seen.

Maybe some day a magic tricorder will be pointed at meteorites, emit an 
eerie whirring sound and then have a readout of the meteorite's 
identification, like the keypad of a Meade Goto telescope, though 
calibration samples are guaranteed to be a beach ;-)  When that day 
comes it will be a great day and I bet a lot of curators of museum 
collections will be among the first to line up to check their own 
provenances, just to be sure.  Human error and neglect over the long 
haul is just as bad as dishonesty, and I am 100% with you on your 
strong opinion on the former.

Good post, and please keep them coming.

Kindest wishes
Doug

PS I'm going to try to sell a Wold Cottage Micro, 88 mg in a package 
deal with a 1787 King George III silver shilling (the shiny new coin 
that was used to gain admission to see the exhibit by Topham's curator 
on Picadilly, as the coins were not issued annually.  If anyone wants 
to buy the coin/meteorite deal please contact me off list to save me a 
separate post which I haven't gotten around to doing for months.  It 
has respectable provenance and the only reason I have it is because 
when I bought it it was written as 0.88 grams instead of 0.088 g (88 
MG), which is below my collection threshold size).  It may be 86 mg if 
I'm not recalling right but anyone interest I'll happily go find it and 
let you know!


-----Original Message-----
From: Don Merchant <dmerchan at rochester.rr.com>
To: countdeiro <countdeiro at earthlink.net>; jasonutas 
<jasonutas at gmail.com>; meteorite-list 
<meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>; MexicoDoug <mexicodoug at aim.com>
Cc: Don Merchant <dmerchan at rochester.rr.com>
Sent: Wed, Feb 15, 2012 12:49 am
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Ebay heads up - Tissint/Scarborough


Hi Doug and List.
I appreciate your thoughts and opinions Doug. I would like to add 
several
things though to help clarify any misconceptions either based on my
statements or yours. First the whole idea of provenance is NOT used as 
a
gimmick to sell. It is only an assurance to the potential buyer that 
what
your buying is as best an honest description that I can provide that 
the
specimen is the real McCoy. When I started collecting many years ago 
you
could check out all the meteorites for sale or up for auction on eBay 
in
less then a half hour! Now at any one time there are over 6,000 
meteorites
available on eBay and they are not just from a hand full of 
Sellers/Dealers
like the days of yore. Things have changed. The market has exploded due 
to
the availability and awareness of a meteorites value. This in turn has
increased the level of fraud to heights never before seen in this 
hobby. I
am not saying a provenance is the answer that will 100% eliminate fraud 
or
the misrepresentation of any meteorite or that the former owner should 
be
held accountable if a particular meteorite is not what it was said to 
be.
What I am saying is that a provenance can be used as a form of 
deterrent to
those who commit fraud and misrepresentation of a specimen. I don't 
have the
answer but I do know that I have been a victim of fraud in the past and 
am
very careful who I deal with and always ask questions on the 
authenticity of
a meteorite before I purchase. Anyone today who feels this is silly or 
a
waste of time is totally ignorant. I am sure many reading this, have 
and
will shop around by checking prices, quality, and the like on anything 
they
buy when it comes to laying down a substantial  amount of money, be it 
for a
plasma TV, Car, House, etc. This includes meteorites. They are not 
always
cheap. Imagine buying a meteorite for $1500 only to find out its worth 
$15!
What do you do then. I wonder how many out there would dump it in their
garden! My concern is it being passed on and ending up in my collection 
or
even yours. How can this be controlled? We have zero, nothing in place 
to
control this except the honesty of a Seller. Problem is we know all 
Sellers
are not honest. Thus the reason I only deal with several of the top
meteorite Dealers in the world because of their proven track record,
honesty, and great record keeping. I consider them my Mentor, friends, 
and
respect them to the utmost.
*
As far as "speck dealer" specks have been sold for as long as I can
remember, especially when it comes to Martian and Lunar. I have never 
taken
a hammer to single meteorite. My specimens that I do sell are cut with 
a
diamond blade saw and all proper methods of cutting and preservation 
are
taken into full account to provide the best specimens possible to a 
buyer.
It was not long ago that meteorite collecting was ALWAYS presented as a 
rich
mans hobby. Not everyone is born with a silver spoon in their mouth or
fallen upon an inheritance in which they can afford 5, 10, 50, 100 gram 
rare
meteorite specimens. I cater to the small guy collector, selling 
smaller
pieces that are affordable to these little guy collectors. There are 
many
that do this such as Greg Hupe, Michael Cottingham, and Mike Farmer to 
name
a few. I have to believe that the many sales to the little guy 
collector are
what helps put food on their table then the occasional big rich guy
collector who buys 1 specimen every year or so from them. When I sell 
my
specimens, I first have to put up a very large sum of money to acquire 
a
very rare piece so that I can cut them into pieces that the little guy
collector, including myself can afford who would otherwise never be 
able to
acquire, except for the rich guy collector. It has always been a FACT 
that
the smaller the piece the more you pay per gram ratio then the larger 
the
piece per gram ratio, this due for one reason and one reason alone and 
that
being cutting loss. I guess if I did use a hammer I could eliminate 
this
loss and pass on the savings but I prefer instead to keep to preparing
slices. I make very little after all is said and done with selling, so 
greed
is not my style. Never has been never will be. In fact over the last 
several
months I have been contemplating selling my entire collection and 
leaving
the meteorite hobby all together. My passion lies in educating the new
meteorite collector and new astronomer, thus the creation of my 
Website. To
further my proof of not being greedy, I have seen other people charge
monthly or yearly fees to post someone's website or graphic link on 
there
website, yet I have many Dealer websites listed on mine and I don't 
charge a
penny nor do I make a penny. In fact the many I have listed, don't even 
take
the time to reciprocate and list me, let alone give me a discount when 
I
purchase meteorites from them! So with that all said I am sorry I even
brought up provenance. It just seems that anything brought up here on 
the
list that may affect or complicate in any way the livelihood of others, 
that
morality and honesty is suddenly given a backseat on the bus.
Thank you.
Sincerely
Don Merchant
----- Original Message -----
From: "MexicoDoug" <mexicodoug at aim.com>
To: <dmerchan at rochester.rr.com>; <countdeiro at earthlink.net>;
<jasonutas at gmail.com>; <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2012 8:26 PM
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Ebay heads up - Tissint/Scarborough


> Don M wrote:
>
> "A provenance can be traced to the former owner and more questions 
can
> then be brought up on the specimens validity."
>
> Hi Don,
>
> Have you noticed lately we are seeing a number of dealers advertising
> spectacular falls in micro for weekl on the list?  Every time I get
> excited just to see, Oh, another hammer job... not my cup of tea but
> delicious anyway.
>
> I noticed you had some very nice sub-gram material from Rob Elliot in 
your
> last advertised auctions on the list.  Now, whenever someone buys a 3 
gram
> specimen from poor Rob and takes the hammer to it, do we get included 
a
> free conversation with him that he gave a good deal on it to someone 
who
> then proceeded to smash it into a hundred pieces and now as the 
piece's
> grandpa has inherited the responsibility to take everyone by the 
hand,
> intelligent and "not so much", to explain how the material was 
originally
> acquired from the BM?  In my opinion, certainly not!  The prime 
sources
> for this material can't be responsible for every atomic sized piece 
that
> falls off the end of a hammer when some buyer gets the idea he is 
going to
> be a meteorite speck dealer.
>
> I am not inferring you did the hammer maneuver, BTW, but even if you 
did,
> regardless of what I think about micros, it is a perfectly legal way 
to
> deal whether I like it or not and I have been tempted to bid on your
> auctions sometimes when they are larger.
>
> There can be a fine line between overdoing provenance as a marketing
> gimmick and using it, in the context of a dozen other factors to make 
an
> informed purchase.  From your passion and enthusiasm, I suspect 
keeping
> provenance sacred is of prime importance.
>
> However, unfortunately the authorities to be still aren't issuing
> meteorite birth certificates, although some have come frightfully 
close as
> of late (frightfully, I say because this new strategy completely 
excludes
> me as a primary customer due to the price tag attached, all the while
> kilos are stockpiled for someone's self-directed retirement account.
> [Now, that I respect, but it strikes me as greedy - note to Doug: put 
this
> statement in the opinion section, you have no right to imply this is 
bad
> form until you, Doug, are faced with your own private Esquel])
>
> I applaud your enthusiasm but do ask you to consider alternate 
situations
> which don't fit your concept of a meteorite passing from hand to hand 
in a
> neat little chain, since this is a very complicated can of sardines 
that
> doesn't lend itself to blanket statements.  As we all know a chain is 
as
> strong as its weakest link, and if someone is dishonest it really 
becomes
> an issue for independent scientific verification - because then and 
only
> then - the stone must speak.  No pile of papers unless photo 
documented in
> a Dewey decimal system is beyond a con artist's talent in this day 
and you
> must come to grips that sometimes asking to see the pier and stilt
> foundations of an old houseboat isn't going to happen, even while 
falling
> in love with the updated cabinetry in the kitchen!
>
> The bottom line is, the buyer has the right and obligation to his own
> wallet to make his own valuation and not lose his head in a 
speculative
> excitement.  A set of provenance tags works in some cases, but in 
most
> cases it doesn't.
>
> That was intended to be more analytical than opinionated.  Now let me 
give
> my opinion:
>
> Micros should *never* be purchased for a higher $/g rate than macro
> specimens.  While I always wince when hearing how I must do something 
to
> guarantee the future of my children, if I could figure a way to do 
this, l
> would say the same thing.  Maybe that's one of the non-scientific 
reasons
> I am so in love with the Tatahouine meteorite.  When you break it - 
it's
> worth less, and it is refreshing to know that except for a few 
talented
> slicer folk out there experimenting with sections, most of the large
> pieces will be conserved for posterity, always convincingly 
recognizable,
> and this, because the market determined value the way *I said*.  Ok, 
now I
> apologize, I understand I am lucky to be participating in the 
meteorite
> world and I have a debt of gratitude so great to all of my peers and
> giants before me, that I am not entitled to preach this thought to 
other
> good people doing an honest day's work.
>
> Kindest wishes
> Doug
> PS flame away ;-)
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