[meteorite-list] Ebay heads up - Tissint/Scarborough

[Don Merchant]

Hi Doug and List.
I appreciate your thoughts and opinions Doug. I would like to add several 
things though to help clarify any misconceptions either based on my 
statements or yours. First the whole idea of provenance is NOT used as a 
gimmick to sell. It is only an assurance to the potential buyer that what 
your buying is as best an honest description that I can provide that the 
specimen is the real McCoy. When I started collecting many years ago you 
could check out all the meteorites for sale or up for auction on eBay in 
less then a half hour! Now at any one time there are over 6,000 meteorites 
available on eBay and they are not just from a hand full of Sellers/Dealers 
like the days of yore. Things have changed. The market has exploded due to 
the availability and awareness of a meteorites value. This in turn has 
increased the level of fraud to heights never before seen in this hobby. I 
am not saying a provenance is the answer that will 100% eliminate fraud or 
the misrepresentation of any meteorite or that the former owner should be 
held accountable if a particular meteorite is not what it was said to be. 
What I am saying is that a provenance can be used as a form of deterrent to 
those who commit fraud and misrepresentation of a specimen. I don't have the 
answer but I do know that I have been a victim of fraud in the past and am 
very careful who I deal with and always ask questions on the authenticity of 
a meteorite before I purchase. Anyone today who feels this is silly or a 
waste of time is totally ignorant. I am sure many reading this, have and 
will shop around by checking prices, quality, and the like on anything they 
buy when it comes to laying down a substantial  amount of money, be it for a 
plasma TV, Car, House, etc. This includes meteorites. They are not always 
cheap. Imagine buying a meteorite for $1500 only to find out its worth $15! 
What do you do then. I wonder how many out there would dump it in their 
garden! My concern is it being passed on and ending up in my collection or 
even yours. How can this be controlled? We have zero, nothing in place to 
control this except the honesty of a Seller. Problem is we know all Sellers 
are not honest. Thus the reason I only deal with several of the top 
meteorite Dealers in the world because of their proven track record, 
honesty, and great record keeping. I consider them my Mentor, friends, and 
respect them to the utmost.
*
As far as "speck dealer" specks have been sold for as long as I can 
remember, especially when it comes to Martian and Lunar. I have never taken 
a hammer to single meteorite. My specimens that I do sell are cut with a 
diamond blade saw and all proper methods of cutting and preservation are 
taken into full account to provide the best specimens possible to a buyer. 
It was not long ago that meteorite collecting was ALWAYS presented as a rich 
mans hobby. Not everyone is born with a silver spoon in their mouth or 
fallen upon an inheritance in which they can afford 5, 10, 50, 100 gram rare 
meteorite specimens. I cater to the small guy collector, selling smaller 
pieces that are affordable to these little guy collectors. There are many 
that do this such as Greg Hupe, Michael Cottingham, and Mike Farmer to name 
a few. I have to believe that the many sales to the little guy collector are 
what helps put food on their table then the occasional big rich guy 
collector who buys 1 specimen every year or so from them. When I sell my 
specimens, I first have to put up a very large sum of money to acquire a 
very rare piece so that I can cut them into pieces that the little guy 
collector, including myself can afford who would otherwise never be able to 
acquire, except for the rich guy collector. It has always been a FACT that 
the smaller the piece the more you pay per gram ratio then the larger the 
piece per gram ratio, this due for one reason and one reason alone and that 
being cutting loss. I guess if I did use a hammer I could eliminate this 
loss and pass on the savings but I prefer instead to keep to preparing 
slices. I make very little after all is said and done with selling, so greed 
is not my style. Never has been never will be. In fact over the last several 
months I have been contemplating selling my entire collection and leaving 
the meteorite hobby all together. My passion lies in educating the new 
meteorite collector and new astronomer, thus the creation of my Website. To 
further my proof of not being greedy, I have seen other people charge 
monthly or yearly fees to post someone's website or graphic link on there 
website, yet I have many Dealer websites listed on mine and I don't charge a 
penny nor do I make a penny. In fact the many I have listed, don't even take 
the time to reciprocate and list me, let alone give me a discount when I 
purchase meteorites from them! So with that all said I am sorry I even 
brought up provenance. It just seems that anything brought up here on the 
list that may affect or complicate in any way the livelihood of others, that 
morality and honesty is suddenly given a backseat on the bus.
Thank you.
Sincerely
Don Merchant
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "MexicoDoug" <mexicodoug at aim.com>
To: <dmerchan at rochester.rr.com>; <countdeiro at earthlink.net>; 
<jasonutas at gmail.com>; <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2012 8:26 PM
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Ebay heads up - Tissint/Scarborough


> Don M wrote:
>
> "A provenance can be traced to the former owner and more questions can 
> then be brought up on the specimens validity."
>
> Hi Don,
>
> Have you noticed lately we are seeing a number of dealers advertising 
> spectacular falls in micro for weekl on the list?  Every time I get 
> excited just to see, Oh, another hammer job... not my cup of tea but 
> delicious anyway.
>
> I noticed you had some very nice sub-gram material from Rob Elliot in your 
> last advertised auctions on the list.  Now, whenever someone buys a 3 gram 
> specimen from poor Rob and takes the hammer to it, do we get included a 
> free conversation with him that he gave a good deal on it to someone who 
> then proceeded to smash it into a hundred pieces and now as the piece's 
> grandpa has inherited the responsibility to take everyone by the hand, 
> intelligent and "not so much", to explain how the material was originally 
> acquired from the BM?  In my opinion, certainly not!  The prime sources 
> for this material can't be responsible for every atomic sized piece that 
> falls off the end of a hammer when some buyer gets the idea he is going to 
> be a meteorite speck dealer.
>
> I am not inferring you did the hammer maneuver, BTW, but even if you did, 
> regardless of what I think about micros, it is a perfectly legal way to 
> deal whether I like it or not and I have been tempted to bid on your 
> auctions sometimes when they are larger.
>
> There can be a fine line between overdoing provenance as a marketing 
> gimmick and using it, in the context of a dozen other factors to make an 
> informed purchase.  From your passion and enthusiasm, I suspect keeping 
> provenance sacred is of prime importance.
>
> However, unfortunately the authorities to be still aren't issuing 
> meteorite birth certificates, although some have come frightfully close as 
> of late (frightfully, I say because this new strategy completely excludes 
> me as a primary customer due to the price tag attached, all the while 
> kilos are stockpiled for someone's self-directed retirement account. 
> [Now, that I respect, but it strikes me as greedy - note to Doug: put this 
> statement in the opinion section, you have no right to imply this is bad 
> form until you, Doug, are faced with your own private Esquel])
>
> I applaud your enthusiasm but do ask you to consider alternate situations 
> which don't fit your concept of a meteorite passing from hand to hand in a 
> neat little chain, since this is a very complicated can of sardines that 
> doesn't lend itself to blanket statements.  As we all know a chain is as 
> strong as its weakest link, and if someone is dishonest it really becomes 
> an issue for independent scientific verification - because then and only 
> then - the stone must speak.  No pile of papers unless photo documented in 
> a Dewey decimal system is beyond a con artist's talent in this day and you 
> must come to grips that sometimes asking to see the pier and stilt 
> foundations of an old houseboat isn't going to happen, even while falling 
> in love with the updated cabinetry in the kitchen!
>
> The bottom line is, the buyer has the right and obligation to his own 
> wallet to make his own valuation and not lose his head in a speculative 
> excitement.  A set of provenance tags works in some cases, but in most 
> cases it doesn't.
>
> That was intended to be more analytical than opinionated.  Now let me give 
> my opinion:
>
> Micros should *never* be purchased for a higher $/g rate than macro 
> specimens.  While I always wince when hearing how I must do something to 
> guarantee the future of my children, if I could figure a way to do this, l 
> would say the same thing.  Maybe that's one of the non-scientific reasons 
> I am so in love with the Tatahouine meteorite.  When you break it - it's 
> worth less, and it is refreshing to know that except for a few talented 
> slicer folk out there experimenting with sections, most of the large 
> pieces will be conserved for posterity, always convincingly recognizable, 
> and this, because the market determined value the way *I said*.  Ok, now I 
> apologize, I understand I am lucky to be participating in the meteorite 
> world and I have a debt of gratitude so great to all of my peers and 
> giants before me, that I am not entitled to preach this thought to other 
> good people doing an honest day's work.
>
> Kindest wishes
> Doug
> PS flame away ;-)
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