[meteorite-list] Meteorite Law/Export and Quick Question about Sahara xxxxx finds

Michael Gilmer meteoritemike at gmail.com
Sun Dec 19 12:30:09 EST 2010 

Did someone say "NWA meteorite map"...?

http://www.galactic-stone.com/product/meteorite-map-saharan-desert-nwa-map-suitable-for-framing

:)


On 12/19/10, Greg Catterton <star_wars_collector at yahoo.com> wrote:
> Is there a "map" that shows the areas of what is covered under NWA? If not,
> I think it would be useful to have one, not only for talking to people about
> meteorites but also for anyone who sells or collects NWA material.
> Being able to show where and what NWA is would go a long way.
>
> As for the laws - I am not sure I know enough to offer an answer. It is
> something I am currently researching however.
> >From what I have seen, Algeria seems like a place that is not export
> friendly (not too safe either!) and would require export permits to legally
> own, just as Canada, Australia, Argentina, Brazil and many other countries.
>
> Does anyone know more about this or have a site/page set up on meteorite
> laws and exporting? I think it would be a good resource to have available.
>
> Greg Catterton
> www.wanderingstarmeteorites.com
> IMCA member 4682
> On Ebay: http://stores.shop.ebay.com/wanderingstarmeteorites
> On Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/WanderingStarMeteorites
>
>
> --- On Sun, 12/19/10, Jeff Grossman <jgrossman at usgs.gov> wrote:
>
>> From: Jeff Grossman <jgrossman at usgs.gov>
>> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Quick Question about Sahara xxxxx finds
>> To: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com
>> Date: Sunday, December 19, 2010, 11:52 AM
>> Parts of Algeria are included in the
>> definition of NWA.
>>
>> As for export laws, you tell me!
>>
>> Jeff
>>
>> On 12/19/2010 11:34 AM, Greg Catterton wrote:
>> > Thanks for the info Jeff. I have a couple
>> questions...
>> >
>> >> Algeria, Niger, and Libya were all possible
>> collection
>> >> areas, and these are not in the NWA area, which is
>> defined
>> >> as "Morocco and adjacent parts of the surrounding
>> >> countries."
>> > If this is the case, how do recent Lunars like NWA
>> 2996, 4483 and 5151 become NWA stones when they were found
>> in Algeria?
>> > Given export laws (however foolish they are) shouldnt
>> these require export permits to own like Canadian and
>> Argentina falls since Algeria does not allow export?
>> >
>> > Greg Catterton
>> > www.wanderingstarmeteorites.com
>> > IMCA member 4682
>> > On Ebay: http://stores.shop.ebay.com/wanderingstarmeteorites
>> > On Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/WanderingStarMeteorites
>> >
>> >
>> > --- On Sun, 12/19/10, Jeff Grossman<jgrossman at usgs.gov>
>> wrote:
>> >
>> >> From: Jeff Grossman<jgrossman at usgs.gov>
>> >> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Quick Question about
>> Sahara xxxxx finds
>> >> To: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com
>> >> Date: Sunday, December 19, 2010, 7:44 AM
>> >> There are several issues and a
>> >> misconception here.
>> >>
>> >> Misconception: The Nomenclature Committee (NomCom)
>> does not
>> >> change the names of meteorites once they are
>> accepted,
>> >> except in extraordinary circumstances (e.g., the
>> Gao/Guenie
>> >> nomenclatural nightmare).  To do so would
>> cause endless
>> >> confusion.  All of the Nova meteorites were
>> named that
>> >> way when they were initially published in the
>> Bulletin.
>> >>
>> >> The "Sahara" series, which were collected and
>> so-named by
>> >> the Labenne family, predates the "NWA" series by
>> several
>> >> years.  In the late 1997, the Sahara
>> meteorites were
>> >> being sold under this name, several groups of
>> scientists
>> >> wanted to publish on them, and the NomCom had to
>> figure out
>> >> what to do about their names.  The choices
>> were to
>> >> accept these names, convince the Labennes to
>> rename them, or
>> >> to rename them ourselves for the official
>> >> announcement.  For several reasons, Sahara
>> was
>> >> accepted.  First, the names were already
>> coming into
>> >> widespread use, and renaming them would cause a
>> mess.
>> >> Second, it was understood that the coordinates
>> would be
>> >> released, perhaps in five years, once the area was
>> hunted
>> >> out (this never happened, but I still hope it
>> will).
>> >>
>> >> The vote to establish the NWA series came in 2000,
>> when it
>> >> became clear that the Saharan nomenclature problem
>> was
>> >> growing in magnitude.  It seems possible
>> that, had the
>> >> Labenne meteorites appeared after this date,
>> NomCom would
>> >> have insisted that they all be called NWA.
>> But
>> >> probably not:  we thought that Tunisia,
>> eastern
>> >> Algeria, Niger, and Libya were all possible
>> collection
>> >> areas, and these are not in the NWA area, which is
>> defined
>> >> as "Morocco and adjacent parts of the surrounding
>> >> countries."
>> >>
>> >> Given all of this, probably the ideal names for
>> the Labenne
>> >> meteorites would have been Sahara 001 - Sahara
>> xxx, but what
>> >> was done was done.
>> >>
>> >> Jeff
>> >>
>> >> On 12/18/2010 2:25 PM, Greg Catterton wrote:
>> >>> Many will provide false information or not any
>> at all
>> >> to keep the location secret. There is a discussion
>> elsewhere
>> >> currently about a finder lying about the location
>> to secure
>> >> the material available.
>> >>> Algeria has laws preventing the export of
>> meteorites,
>> >> yet there are new ones coming out everyday. Even
>> recent
>> >> Lunars from there are accepted and sold. All one
>> has to do
>> >> is simply say NWA.
>> >>> Berduc was the same way, many were transported
>> outside
>> >> the country and claimed to have been found
>> elsewhere.
>> >>> I have seen many others questioned about
>> locations and
>> >> even know of one person who has outright lied
>> about where a
>> >> stone was recovered to keep from paying the land
>> owner the
>> >> share agreed on and created a laughable story of
>> the find
>> >> that has been published with so many flaws, it
>> looks like a
>> >> scam ad on ebay. I bet some of you have a piece of
>> it in
>> >> your collection and dont even know the whole story
>> behind
>> >> it!
>> >>> I think it happens more then we would really
>> want to
>> >> know.
>> >>> Greg Catterton
>> >>> www.wanderingstarmeteorites.com
>> >>> IMCA member 4682
>> >>> On Ebay: http://stores.shop.ebay.com/wanderingstarmeteorites
>> >>> On Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/WanderingStarMeteorites
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> --- On Sat, 12/18/10, Michael Gilmer<meteoritemike at gmail.com>
>> >> wrote:
>> >>>> From: Michael Gilmer<meteoritemike at gmail.com>
>> >>>> Subject: [meteorite-list] Quick Question
>> about
>> >> Sahara xxxxx finds
>> >>>> To: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com
>> >>>> Date: Saturday, December 18, 2010, 1:51
>> PM
>> >>>> Hi Listees,
>> >>>>
>> >>>> I have a quick question for the group and
>> maybe
>> >> someone
>> >>>> here can shed
>> >>>> some light on this subject....
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Meteorites that do not have find
>> coordinates or
>> >> have
>> >>>> falsified find
>> >>>> coordinates are typically given the
>> "Nova"
>> >> designation by
>> >>>> NonCom or if
>> >>>> they are from Northwest Africa, they are
>> given the
>> >> "NWA"
>> >>>> designation.
>> >>>> In a handful of cases, a named meteorite
>> was later
>> >> changed
>> >>>> to a "Nova"
>> >>>> because it was discovered that the find
>> >> coordinates were
>> >>>> incorrect or
>> >>>> dubious.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> So, why after all of these years does the
>> Sahara
>> >> xxxxx
>> >>>> finds (mostly
>> >>>> Labenne finds) are not referred to as
>> "NWA" or
>> >>>> "Nova"?  It is
>> >>>> well-known that the find coordinates on
>> the many
>> >> of these
>> >>>> Labenne
>> >>>> Sahara finds are falsified, which has hurt
>> science
>> >> and the
>> >>>> provenance
>> >>>> of the specimens.  To this day, over
>> a decade
>> >> later,
>> >>>> the true find
>> >>>> coordinates of these specimens have not
>> been
>> >> revealed and
>> >>>> probably
>> >>>> will never be revealed.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Can someone explain the double-standard at
>> work
>> >> here? Is it because
>> >>>> of the pioneering work and
>> otherwise-respectable
>> >> work that
>> >>>> the
>> >>>> Labennes have done - despite the
>> falsification of
>> >> the find
>> >>>> locations?
>> >>>> Why do these Sahara finds get special
>> treatment,
>> >> while
>> >>>> other finds
>> >>>> with dubious locations are lumped under
>> "NWA" or
>> >> "Nova" ?
>> >>>> I realize the NWA designation did not
>> exist when
>> >> the Sahara
>> >>>> finds were
>> >>>> accepted by NonCom, but shouldn't they now
>> receive
>> >> the
>> >>>> Nova
>> >>>> designation?  In fact, the NWA
>> designation
>> >> was
>> >>>> created, in part, due
>> >>>> to the confusion created by the Sahara
>> >> finds.  So why
>> >>>> do they still
>> >>>> get a special place in nomenclature after
>> all of
>> >> this
>> >>>> time?
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Best regards,
>> >>>>
>> >>>> MikeG
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >>>> Mike Gilmer - Galactic
>> Stone&   Ironworks
>> >> Meteorites
>> >>>> Website - http://www.galactic-stone.com
>> >>>> Facebook - http://www.facebook.com/galacticstone
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>> >>>>
>> >>
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