[meteorite-list] Meteorite Law/Export and Quick Question about Sahara xxxxx finds

Sun Dec 19 12:28:26 EST 2010

Hi Greg and List,

I wouldn't expect to see Algeria follow the same route as Canada or
Australia with permitting.  The Algerian government is only a step or
two better than the Taliban, so I wouldn't expect a militant regime to
accommodate the bureaucracy of international meteorite trading.  The
situation in Chaco province with Campo is far different than the
dangerous border between two countries which have gone to war in the
past (Algeria and Morocco) and a region that is currently experiencing
an active violent insurgency (the alliance of Al-Qaeda in Maghreb and
the local GSPC).   Some areas of the Sahara are war-zones and that
complicates everything.

Best regards,

MikeG

On 12/19/10, Greg Catterton <star_wars_collector at yahoo.com> wrote:
> Is there a "map" that shows the areas of what is covered under NWA? If not,
> I think it would be useful to have one, not only for talking to people about
> meteorites but also for anyone who sells or collects NWA material.
> Being able to show where and what NWA is would go a long way.
>
> As for the laws - I am not sure I know enough to offer an answer. It is
> something I am currently researching however.
> >From what I have seen, Algeria seems like a place that is not export
> friendly (not too safe either!) and would require export permits to legally
> own, just as Canada, Australia, Argentina, Brazil and many other countries.
>
> Does anyone know more about this or have a site/page set up on meteorite
> laws and exporting? I think it would be a good resource to have available.
>
> Greg Catterton
> www.wanderingstarmeteorites.com
> IMCA member 4682
> On Ebay: http://stores.shop.ebay.com/wanderingstarmeteorites
> On Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/WanderingStarMeteorites
>
>
> --- On Sun, 12/19/10, Jeff Grossman <jgrossman at usgs.gov> wrote:
>
>> From: Jeff Grossman <jgrossman at usgs.gov>
>> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Quick Question about Sahara xxxxx finds
>> To: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com
>> Date: Sunday, December 19, 2010, 11:52 AM
>> Parts of Algeria are included in the
>> definition of NWA.
>>
>> As for export laws, you tell me!
>>
>> Jeff
>>
>> On 12/19/2010 11:34 AM, Greg Catterton wrote:
>> > Thanks for the info Jeff. I have a couple
>> questions...
>> >
>> >> Algeria, Niger, and Libya were all possible
>> collection
>> >> areas, and these are not in the NWA area, which is
>> defined
>> >> as "Morocco and adjacent parts of the surrounding
>> >> countries."
>> > If this is the case, how do recent Lunars like NWA
>> 2996, 4483 and 5151 become NWA stones when they were found
>> in Algeria?
>> > Given export laws (however foolish they are) shouldnt
>> these require export permits to own like Canadian and
>> Argentina falls since Algeria does not allow export?
>> >
>> > Greg Catterton
>> > www.wanderingstarmeteorites.com
>> > IMCA member 4682
>> > On Ebay: http://stores.shop.ebay.com/wanderingstarmeteorites
>> > On Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/WanderingStarMeteorites
>> >
>> >
>> > --- On Sun, 12/19/10, Jeff Grossman<jgrossman at usgs.gov>
>> wrote:
>> >
>> >> From: Jeff Grossman<jgrossman at usgs.gov>
>> >> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Quick Question about
>> Sahara xxxxx finds
>> >> To: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com
>> >> Date: Sunday, December 19, 2010, 7:44 AM
>> >> There are several issues and a
>> >> misconception here.
>> >>
>> >> Misconception: The Nomenclature Committee (NomCom)
>> does not
>> >> change the names of meteorites once they are
>> accepted,
>> >> except in extraordinary circumstances (e.g., the
>> Gao/Guenie
>> >> nomenclatural nightmare).  To do so would
>> cause endless
>> >> confusion.  All of the Nova meteorites were
>> named that
>> >> way when they were initially published in the
>> Bulletin.
>> >>
>> >> The "Sahara" series, which were collected and
>> so-named by
>> >> the Labenne family, predates the "NWA" series by
>> several
>> >> years.  In the late 1997, the Sahara
>> meteorites were
>> >> being sold under this name, several groups of
>> scientists
>> >> wanted to publish on them, and the NomCom had to
>> figure out
>> >> what to do about their names.  The choices
>> were to
>> >> accept these names, convince the Labennes to
>> rename them, or
>> >> to rename them ourselves for the official
>> >> announcement.  For several reasons, Sahara
>> was
>> >> accepted.  First, the names were already
>> coming into
>> >> widespread use, and renaming them would cause a
>> mess.
>> >> Second, it was understood that the coordinates
>> would be
>> >> released, perhaps in five years, once the area was
>> hunted
>> >> out (this never happened, but I still hope it
>> will).
>> >>
>> >> The vote to establish the NWA series came in 2000,
>> when it
>> >> became clear that the Saharan nomenclature problem
>> was
>> >> growing in magnitude.  It seems possible
>> that, had the
>> >> Labenne meteorites appeared after this date,
>> NomCom would
>> >> have insisted that they all be called NWA.
>> But
>> >> probably not:  we thought that Tunisia,
>> eastern
>> >> Algeria, Niger, and Libya were all possible
>> collection
>> >> areas, and these are not in the NWA area, which is
>> defined
>> >> as "Morocco and adjacent parts of the surrounding
>> >> countries."
>> >>
>> >> Given all of this, probably the ideal names for
>> the Labenne
>> >> meteorites would have been Sahara 001 - Sahara
>> xxx, but what
>> >> was done was done.
>> >>
>> >> Jeff
>> >>
>> >> On 12/18/2010 2:25 PM, Greg Catterton wrote:
>> >>> Many will provide false information or not any
>> at all
>> >> to keep the location secret. There is a discussion
>> elsewhere
>> >> currently about a finder lying about the location
>> to secure
>> >> the material available.
>> >>> Algeria has laws preventing the export of
>> meteorites,
>> >> yet there are new ones coming out everyday. Even
>> recent
>> >> Lunars from there are accepted and sold. All one
>> has to do
>> >> is simply say NWA.
>> >>> Berduc was the same way, many were transported
>> outside
>> >> the country and claimed to have been found
>> elsewhere.
>> >>> I have seen many others questioned about
>> locations and
>> >> even know of one person who has outright lied
>> about where a
>> >> stone was recovered to keep from paying the land
>> owner the
>> >> share agreed on and created a laughable story of
>> the find
>> >> that has been published with so many flaws, it
>> looks like a
>> >> scam ad on ebay. I bet some of you have a piece of
>> it in
>> >> your collection and dont even know the whole story
>> behind
>> >> it!
>> >>> I think it happens more then we would really
>> want to
>> >> know.
>> >>> Greg Catterton
>> >>> www.wanderingstarmeteorites.com
>> >>> IMCA member 4682
>> >>> On Ebay: http://stores.shop.ebay.com/wanderingstarmeteorites
>> >>> On Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/WanderingStarMeteorites
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> --- On Sat, 12/18/10, Michael Gilmer<meteoritemike at gmail.com>
>> >> wrote:
>> >>>> From: Michael Gilmer<meteoritemike at gmail.com>
>> >>>> Subject: [meteorite-list] Quick Question
>> about
>> >> Sahara xxxxx finds
>> >>>> To: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com
>> >>>> Date: Saturday, December 18, 2010, 1:51
>> PM
>> >>>> Hi Listees,
>> >>>>
>> >>>> I have a quick question for the group and
>> maybe
>> >> someone
>> >>>> here can shed
>> >>>> some light on this subject....
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Meteorites that do not have find
>> coordinates or
>> >> have
>> >>>> falsified find
>> >>>> coordinates are typically given the
>> "Nova"
>> >> designation by
>> >>>> NonCom or if
>> >>>> they are from Northwest Africa, they are
>> given the
>> >> "NWA"
>> >>>> designation.
>> >>>> In a handful of cases, a named meteorite
>> was later
>> >> changed
>> >>>> to a "Nova"
>> >>>> because it was discovered that the find
>> >> coordinates were
>> >>>> incorrect or
>> >>>> dubious.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> So, why after all of these years does the
>> Sahara
>> >> xxxxx
>> >>>> finds (mostly
>> >>>> Labenne finds) are not referred to as
>> "NWA" or
>> >>>> "Nova"?  It is
>> >>>> well-known that the find coordinates on
>> the many
>> >> of these
>> >>>> Labenne
>> >>>> Sahara finds are falsified, which has hurt
>> science
>> >> and the
>> >>>> provenance
>> >>>> of the specimens.  To this day, over
>> a decade
>> >> later,
>> >>>> the true find
>> >>>> coordinates of these specimens have not
>> been
>> >> revealed and
>> >>>> probably
>> >>>> will never be revealed.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Can someone explain the double-standard at
>> work
>> >> here? Is it because
>> >>>> of the pioneering work and
>> otherwise-respectable
>> >> work that
>> >>>> the
>> >>>> Labennes have done - despite the
>> falsification of
>> >> the find
>> >>>> locations?
>> >>>> Why do these Sahara finds get special
>> treatment,
>> >> while
>> >>>> other finds
>> >>>> with dubious locations are lumped under
>> "NWA" or
>> >> "Nova" ?
>> >>>> I realize the NWA designation did not
>> exist when
>> >> the Sahara
>> >>>> finds were
>> >>>> accepted by NonCom, but shouldn't they now
>> receive
>> >> the
>> >>>> Nova
>> >>>> designation?  In fact, the NWA
>> designation
>> >> was
>> >>>> created, in part, due
>> >>>> to the confusion created by the Sahara
>> >> finds.  So why
>> >>>> do they still
>> >>>> get a special place in nomenclature after
>> all of
>> >> this
>> >>>> time?
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Best regards,
>> >>>>
>> >>>> MikeG
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >>>> Mike Gilmer - Galactic
>> Stone&   Ironworks
>> >> Meteorites
>> >>>> Website - http://www.galactic-stone.com
>> >>>> Facebook - http://www.facebook.com/galacticstone
>> >>>> News Feed - http://www.galactic-stone.com/rss/126516
>> >>>> Twitter - http://twitter.com/galacticstone
>> >>>> Meteorite Top List - http://meteorite.gotop100.com
>> >>>> EOM -
>> >>>> http://www.encyclopedia-of-meteorites.com/collection.aspx?id=1564
>> >>>>
>> >>
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