[meteorite-list] A question?????

Sat Jun 6 19:09:43 EDT 2009

Can we find one first before 1000 emails to the list over this stupid  
thread?
Michael Farmer

Sent from my iPhone
Michael

On Jun 6, 2009, at 3:40 PM, Mexicodoug <mexicodoug at aim.com> wrote:

> Hiho Mr. Martindale, (Isn't Miss Martindale a Tellurian? UK humor)
>
> The adjective already in the language defined in the more limited  
> manner we want is TERRENE. So throw out TERRAN and use TERRENE and  
> I'm fine, are you?
>
> ---------------------------------
>
> I didn't think so... all right...mmmm, I'll plug and grind away at  
> some of your reply which seemed to unnecessarily and possibly  
> incorrectly to look to Latin to make up words and take the ancients  
> out of context ...
>
> Back to reality, and plain English. (The Italians can debate whether  
> Terran works for them, but that seems like a silly argument for  
> English. "Terran" is not a generally accepted English word that  
> evokes sci-fi to meant it was not my intent to make up new words  
> when sufficient words already exist in plain English - that was the  
> real reason I called it a "sci-fi" word. I do not feel it is in a  
> mere mortal's place to modify the dictionary any more than a fire  
> hydrant.
>
> TERRESTRIAL is the word, if we didn't happen to live here and  
> already have plenty of uses for it w/r to meteorites and geology IMO  
> - it seems you are sympathetic to the idea that "terrestrial" has  
> meteorwrong, pseudometeorite, etc. as unwanted confusion and  
> baggage. Besides since all the Inner planets are terrestrial, they  
> are terrestrial meteorites if you want to get picky, vs. cometary,  
> etc. Then weathering, terrestrialization ... Just way too much  
> confusion.
>
> So I
> think TERRENE and TELLURIAN (consistently defined as from earth  
> without inventing a new word) are both fine and not exclusive (of  
> course not, they are words common man has every right to use) any  
> more than calling something a Martian meteorite or a Mars meteorite  
> - where both descriptors are OK. If you want to look for obscure or  
> invented words, TERRAN is great, too, I suppose, as long as you find  
> one first and publish the precedent. Else, I don't agree.
>
> Quoting Cicero (unless you mean the guy from Sky & Tel), won't get  
> you any points unless you do a dissertation on what was going on in  
> people's minds back then! Earth was an element, comparable to air  
> and water, not a planet in a modern sense.
>
> How do I know Cicero wasn't being sarcastic? Your liberty with the  
> translation of the word dicitur, you try to pass it with  
> authority(!) as nominative and tending to exclusive...hmmm....  
> perhaps is just means "say", as in this land for which we say dirt?  
> I don't see it very important either way as there is no need to be  
> dweebish (the word you were looking for) by taking quotes out of  
> context of a near dead though beautiful language since OE and  
> Webster's dictionaries have all we need in boldface.
>
> In German, Terran might be the right word - no problem! As for the  
> comments about the "poetic negative" for tellurian, you totally lost  
> me there and let me add gender as a factor, is Terran more
> macho and Tellurian more effeminate and is that you basis - well,  
> earth out to be effeminate as it is named after a woman...like  
> Venus. Mars is masculine sure... I already gave you the support of  
> the periodic chart of the elements tellurium ("from the earth"),  
> which should be enough to earn a place. It may be that some Germans  
> think the entire English Language sounds poetic compared to theirs!  
> When you discuss by some weird logic I don't follow that this poetic  
> stuff extends to it being the goddess as opposed to the planet, I  
> only wish Mr. Peabody were here to send you to have a face to face  
> with the Legions in the WayBack Machine, the you could see that the  
> planets got their names from Gods that represented them, like  
> Jupiter, Mars, Mercury and Venus. Do we call something Jupiteran or  
> Jupiterian? No we call it Jovian. Why? Because it is the word in the  
> dictionary, from Jove, btw, the "poetic" form of Jupiter. That's how  
> adjectives can be ... For parallel logic, you can't help but trip  
> over "Tellurian".
>
> I think you would find that the ancients had no reasonable  
> vocabulary to describe adjectives for the Earth as a planet because  
> regardless of what shape they thought it had, it was still the the  
> point of reference for the Universe, and was a different animal from  
> the planets they named. That is why terra means dirt in Italian and  
> Portuguese today.
>
> At best it would probably have more to
> do with the concept of "the world" Mundus or whatever the Latin folk  
> have. The English word for that which has as one definition meaning  
> terrestrial is mundane. So if you want to add "MUNDANE" to the pot ,  
> be my guest. And Earth Meteorites seems fine too :)
>
> You might take a look at this which I just found, and I was happy to  
> see the sci-fi comment by whoever wrote the current version:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lexicography_of_Earth
>
> Best wishes,
> Doug
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Martin Altmann <altmann at meteorite-martin.de>
> To: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com
> Sent: Sat, 6 Jun 2009 9:12 am
> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] A question?????
>
>
>
> Hiho Doug,
>
>> the name of the planet "Terra" is more based in science fiction of  
>> some
>> authors these days rather.
>
> Cicero: "ille globus quae terra dicitur.."
> That ball, we call Earth.
>
> In principle "tellus" and "terra" are synonyms,
> but "tellus" is more poetic, means more the goddess, the Earth as  
> center of
> the world, in opposite to a celestial body;
>
> while "terra" means more the physical matter, the Earth as whole  
> physical
> entity (in fact as planet, as celestial body, if they wouldn't have  
> had a
> geocentric system)and also as one of the elements (water, fire..).
>
> Although for the elements only, there for was also "solum", means also
> earth, used,
> especially in opposite to the element water - see also today "solid".
> =0
> AAnd additionally in the meaning of "land" "ground", "bottom".
>
> Finally there is still "humus" for earth.
> That means earth in the sense of the hierarchic system of the spheres,
> where the sphere of the element earth was in the center of the  
> universe,
> (below the sphere of water, below the sphere of air...).
> So it means the lowest, the inmost. (humble, humiliate ect.).
>
> "Tellurem pro terra posuit, quum tellurem deam dicamus, terram  
> elementum."
> Maurus Servius Honoratus (a grammarian around AD 420)
>
>
> Uh my Latin... well he says, fort he goddess "tellus", fort he element
> "terra".
>
> Hmmm I would say, from the Roman ancient world until the modern times,
> "terra" was more in use to denominate Earth as planet. (Also because  
> of the
> Christian tradition, as "terra" is used in the Latin bible. See also
> Augustinus).
>
> So perhaps we should stay with Terra?
>
> The adjective to Terra in Latin would be "terrenus".
> So probably "Terran meteorite" would be correct.
>
> Exist also Latin "terrestris", but that means rather "located on  
> Earth, part
> of the Earth",
> so we could leave "terrestrial" for pseudo-meteorites.
>
> (btw. Mars, Martis --> Martian. (Martinus, says Martin, the Martian).
> Mercur, Mercuris ---> Mercurian. Venus, Veneris ---> Venerian.  
> (cause I
> read somewhere Venusian) Hmm the Doug "Dawn"-space probe is on the  
> way to
> Vesta. Vestalian meteorites sounds a little bit....)
>
>
> Uuuuuuh, a posting like from one of those class mates from th
> e 1st row,
> you never wanted to be friend with...(Don't know the right  
> expression. Geek?
> Swot?..)
>
> Have a nice weekend!
> Martin
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
> Von: meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com
> [mailto:meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von
> Mexicodoug
> Gesendet: Samstag, 6. Juni 2009 09:34
> An: jgrossman at usgs.gov; Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com
> Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] A question?????
>
> Dr. Grossman wrote:
>
> "I think most scientists would call it a terrestrial meteorite, or
> perhaps a terran meteorite."
>
> Hi Jeff,
>
> Definitely those are viable options, though I think this subject would
> spark more debate than Pluto, Plutonian and Plutonic in these extended
> circles if it ever had a type specimen.
>
> I think the name "TELLURIAN", the adjective (From TELLUS[Earth]) might
> be another option, and perhaps more harmonic.
>
> Given the confusion and stigma with "terrestrial" in meteoritics
> frequently being used to describe meteorwrongs, I think this third
> choice could be considered on equal footing without having the  
> baggage.
> Do I recall many scientists objecting for example to the useage of
> "plutonic" as an adjective for Plutoness?
>
> Utilizing Mars as an example and considering the name of the planet
> "Terra" is more based in science fiction of some authors these days
> rather than "Terra Mater", the Roman goddess. As for Terran, it sounds
> a bit far fetched to me, but hey...
> For meteorite collectors who will no do
> ubt be the first to collect
> these so far legendary things, it seems our examples:
>
> martian meteorite (martian for short)
> lunar meteorite (lunar for short, ocassionally the throat-twisting
> lunaite)
> ...why not:
> tellurian meteorite (tellurian for short)
>
> Tellus, the equivalent Roman Earth goddess as Terra Mater, which
> further rounds out the Earth-panteon of Roman possibilities, seems
> almost a natural option
> and probably just slipped your list.
>
> I didn't mention tellurite since there is already a mineral named this
> with a cool blue subadamantine sheen...chemists (who as we know
> generally don't get no respect from geologists) that discovered the
> metallic element opted for Tellurium to name it after Earth, of  
> course,
> for similar considerations we have now, and probably too avoid
> confusion with terrariums, those fish tanks filled with dirt.
> Ironically, Earth's crust is astonishingly poor in this element, vs.
> meteorites and the cosmos in general. Well, they were chemists after
> all. So "Terran meteorite" might have an edge here is you like to say
> Terraite three times fast. (If someone likes tongue-twisters, how
> about, five times fast, "Terr's Tertiary temper terrified Terry the
> teary Terran from Tetroe." got to roll the rr's ad pronounce it
> Tee-troe.
>
> Anway, tellurian and terran sounds like great candidates to me.
> Considering the hard sound of Terran, which sounds a lot like "dirt"
> (real dumb joke alert) and might give us customs problems when we get
> our space faring
> passports or ship meteorites around the Solar system,
> not to mention hurt meteorite dealers' sales...
>
> In any case, I'll wait for the first guy who breaks the myth and
> recovers material for science to Tellus what to call it. (oops, never
> hear the end of that one)
>
> Hoping to escape this heat and join the Telluridian Festivarians for
> the Solstice,
> Doug
> (chemist)
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jeff Grossman <jgrossman at usgs.gov>
> Sent: Fri, 5 Jun 2009 5:12 am
> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] A question?????
>
>
> I think most scientists would call it a terrestrial meteorite, or
> perhaps a terran meteorite.
>
> jeff
>
> Pete Shugar at clearwire.net wrote:
>> We have the Martian type meteorite, and we have the
>> Lunar meteorite and last, the asteroid 4Vesta meteorite.
>> These we know where they come from.
>>
>> Now the question---given enough energy, can a meteorite
>> hit earth and eject debris which (maybe) land on the moon
>> or Mars? What would we call such a meteorite---Earthoid,
>> or maybe Earthite?
>> Just contemplating my navel here.
>> Pete
>>
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>
> -- Dr. Jeffrey N. Grossman phone: (703) 648-6184 
> US Geological Survey fax: (703) 648-6383
>
> 954 National Center
> Reston, VA 20192, USA
>
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