[meteorite-list] A question?????
Mexicodoug
mexicodoug at aim.com
Sat Jun 6 18:40:21 EDT 2009
Hiho Mr. Martindale, (Isn't Miss Martindale a Tellurian? UK humor)
The adjective already in the language defined in the more limited
manner we want is TERRENE. So throw out TERRAN and use TERRENE and I'm
fine, are you?
---------------------------------
I didn't think so... all right...mmmm, I'll plug and grind away at some
of your reply which seemed to unnecessarily and possibly incorrectly to
look to Latin to make up words and take the ancients out of context ...
Back to reality, and plain English. (The Italians can debate whether
Terran works for them, but that seems like a silly argument for
English. "Terran" is not a generally accepted English word that evokes
sci-fi to meant it was not my intent to make up new words when
sufficient words already exist in plain English - that was the real
reason I called it a "sci-fi" word. I do not feel it is in a mere
mortal's place to modify the dictionary any more than a fire hydrant.
TERRESTRIAL is the word, if we didn't happen to live here and already
have plenty of uses for it w/r to meteorites and geology IMO - it seems
you are sympathetic to the idea that "terrestrial" has meteorwrong,
pseudometeorite, etc. as unwanted confusion and baggage. Besides since
all the Inner planets are terrestrial, they are terrestrial meteorites
if you want to get picky, vs. cometary, etc. Then weathering,
terrestrialization ... Just way too much confusion.
So I
think TERRENE and TELLURIAN (consistently defined as from earth
without inventing a new word) are both fine and not exclusive (of
course not, they are words common man has every right to use) any more
than calling something a Martian meteorite or a Mars meteorite - where
both descriptors are OK. If you want to look for obscure or invented
words, TERRAN is great, too, I suppose, as long as you find one first
and publish the precedent. Else, I don't agree.
Quoting Cicero (unless you mean the guy from Sky & Tel), won't get you
any points unless you do a dissertation on what was going on in
people's minds back then! Earth was an element, comparable to air and
water, not a planet in a modern sense.
How do I know Cicero wasn't being sarcastic? Your liberty with the
translation of the word dicitur, you try to pass it with authority(!)
as nominative and tending to exclusive...hmmm.... perhaps is just means
"say", as in this land for which we say dirt? I don't see it very
important either way as there is no need to be dweebish (the word you
were looking for) by taking quotes out of context of a near dead though
beautiful language since OE and Webster's dictionaries have all we need
in boldface.
In German, Terran might be the right word - no problem! As for the
comments about the "poetic negative" for tellurian, you totally lost me
there and let me add gender as a factor, is Terran more
macho and
Tellurian more effeminate and is that you basis - well, earth out to be
effeminate as it is named after a woman...like Venus. Mars is masculine
sure... I already gave you the support of the periodic chart of the
elements tellurium ("from the earth"), which should be enough to earn a
place. It may be that some Germans think the entire English Language
sounds poetic compared to theirs! When you discuss by some weird logic
I don't follow that this poetic stuff extends to it being the goddess
as opposed to the planet, I only wish Mr. Peabody were here to send you
to have a face to face with the Legions in the WayBack Machine, the you
could see that the planets got their names from Gods that represented
them, like Jupiter, Mars, Mercury and Venus. Do we call something
Jupiteran or Jupiterian? No we call it Jovian. Why? Because it is the
word in the dictionary, from Jove, btw, the "poetic" form of Jupiter.
That's how adjectives can be ... For parallel logic, you can't help but
trip over "Tellurian".
I think you would find that the ancients had no reasonable vocabulary
to describe adjectives for the Earth as a planet because regardless of
what shape they thought it had, it was still the the point of reference
for the Universe, and was a different animal from the planets they
named. That is why terra means dirt in Italian and Portuguese today.
At best it would probably have more to
do with the concept of "the
world" Mundus or whatever the Latin folk have. The English word for
that which has as one definition meaning terrestrial is mundane. So if
you want to add "MUNDANE" to the pot , be my guest. And Earth
Meteorites seems fine too :)
You might take a look at this which I just found, and I was happy to
see the sci-fi comment by whoever wrote the current version:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lexicography_of_Earth
Best wishes,
Doug
-----Original Message-----
From: Martin Altmann <altmann at meteorite-martin.de>
To: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com
Sent: Sat, 6 Jun 2009 9:12 am
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] A question?????
Hiho Doug,
>the name of the planet "Terra" is more based in science fiction of some
>authors these days rather.
Cicero: "ille globus quae terra dicitur.."
That ball, we call Earth.
In principle "tellus" and "terra" are synonyms,
but "tellus" is more poetic, means more the goddess, the Earth as
center of
the world, in opposite to a celestial body;
while "terra" means more the physical matter, the Earth as whole
physical
entity (in fact as planet, as celestial body, if they wouldn't have had
a
geocentric system)and also as one of the elements (water, fire..).
Although for the elements only, there for was also "solum", means also
earth, used,
especially in opposite to the element water - see also today "solid".
=0
AAnd additionally in the meaning of "land" "ground", "bottom".
Finally there is still "humus" for earth.
That means earth in the sense of the hierarchic system of the spheres,
where the sphere of the element earth was in the center of the universe,
(below the sphere of water, below the sphere of air...).
So it means the lowest, the inmost. (humble, humiliate ect.).
"Tellurem pro terra posuit, quum tellurem deam dicamus, terram
elementum."
Maurus Servius Honoratus (a grammarian around AD 420)
Uh my Latin... well he says, fort he goddess "tellus", fort he element
"terra".
Hmmm I would say, from the Roman ancient world until the modern times,
"terra" was more in use to denominate Earth as planet. (Also because of
the
Christian tradition, as "terra" is used in the Latin bible. See also
Augustinus).
So perhaps we should stay with Terra?
The adjective to Terra in Latin would be "terrenus".
So probably "Terran meteorite" would be correct.
Exist also Latin "terrestris", but that means rather "located on Earth,
part
of the Earth",
so we could leave "terrestrial" for pseudo-meteorites.
(btw. Mars, Martis --> Martian. (Martinus, says Martin, the Martian).
Mercur, Mercuris ---> Mercurian. Venus, Veneris ---> Venerian. (cause I
read somewhere Venusian) Hmm the Doug "Dawn"-space probe is on the way
to
Vesta. Vestalian meteorites sounds a little bit....)
Uuuuuuh, a posting like from one of those class mates from th
e 1st row,
you never wanted to be friend with...(Don't know the right expression.
Geek?
Swot?..)
Have a nice weekend!
Martin
-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com
[mailto:meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von
Mexicodoug
Gesendet: Samstag, 6. Juni 2009 09:34
An: jgrossman at usgs.gov; Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com
Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] A question?????
Dr. Grossman wrote:
"I think most scientists would call it a terrestrial meteorite, or
perhaps a terran meteorite."
Hi Jeff,
Definitely those are viable options, though I think this subject would
spark more debate than Pluto, Plutonian and Plutonic in these extended
circles if it ever had a type specimen.
I think the name "TELLURIAN", the adjective (From TELLUS[Earth]) might
be another option, and perhaps more harmonic.
Given the confusion and stigma with "terrestrial" in meteoritics
frequently being used to describe meteorwrongs, I think this third
choice could be considered on equal footing without having the baggage.
Do I recall many scientists objecting for example to the useage of
"plutonic" as an adjective for Plutoness?
Utilizing Mars as an example and considering the name of the planet
"Terra" is more based in science fiction of some authors these days
rather than "Terra Mater", the Roman goddess. As for Terran, it sounds
a bit far fetched to me, but hey...
For meteorite collectors who will no do
ubt be the first to collect
these so far legendary things, it seems our examples:
martian meteorite (martian for short)
lunar meteorite (lunar for short, ocassionally the throat-twisting
lunaite)
...why not:
tellurian meteorite (tellurian for short)
Tellus, the equivalent Roman Earth goddess as Terra Mater, which
further rounds out the Earth-panteon of Roman possibilities, seems
almost a natural option
and probably just slipped your list.
I didn't mention tellurite since there is already a mineral named this
with a cool blue subadamantine sheen...chemists (who as we know
generally don't get no respect from geologists) that discovered the
metallic element opted for Tellurium to name it after Earth, of course,
for similar considerations we have now, and probably too avoid
confusion with terrariums, those fish tanks filled with dirt.
Ironically, Earth's crust is astonishingly poor in this element, vs.
meteorites and the cosmos in general. Well, they were chemists after
all. So "Terran meteorite" might have an edge here is you like to say
Terraite three times fast. (If someone likes tongue-twisters, how
about, five times fast, "Terr's Tertiary temper terrified Terry the
teary Terran from Tetroe." got to roll the rr's ad pronounce it
Tee-troe.
Anway, tellurian and terran sounds like great candidates to me.
Considering the hard sound of Terran, which sounds a lot like "dirt"
(real dumb joke alert) and might give us customs problems when we get
our space faring
passports or ship meteorites around the Solar system,
not to mention hurt meteorite dealers' sales...
In any case, I'll wait for the first guy who breaks the myth and
recovers material for science to Tellus what to call it. (oops, never
hear the end of that one)
Hoping to escape this heat and join the Telluridian Festivarians for
the Solstice,
Doug
(chemist)
-----Original Message-----
From: Jeff Grossman <jgrossman at usgs.gov>
Sent: Fri, 5 Jun 2009 5:12 am
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] A question?????
I think most scientists would call it a terrestrial meteorite, or
perhaps a terran meteorite.
jeff
Pete Shugar at clearwire.net wrote:
> We have the Martian type meteorite, and we have the
> Lunar meteorite and last, the asteroid 4Vesta meteorite.
> These we know where they come from.
>
> Now the question---given enough energy, can a meteorite
> hit earth and eject debris which (maybe) land on the moon
> or Mars? What would we call such a meteorite---Earthoid,
> or maybe Earthite?
> Just contemplating my navel here.
> Pete
>
> ______________________________________________
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-- Dr. Jeffrey N. Grossman phone: (703) 648-6184
US Geological Survey fax: (703) 648-6383
954 National Center
Reston, VA 20192, USA
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