[meteorite-list] OT Meteorite novels -gifts II

[Bill]

Doug,

It doesn't take a google cowboy, just a little common sense, to understand the brutal nature of our species. No nation or people is exempt. I've also heard that we have an enormous capacity for good.

Bill



> -----Original Message-----
> From: mexicodoug at aim.com
> Sent: Sat, 25 Nov 2006 21:56:04 -0500
> To: sterling_k_webb at sbcglobal.net
> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite novels -gifts II
> 
> Sterling wrote:
> "1739-1740 War of Jenkins' Ear"
> "And [the USA's] certainly never managed to have a war as magnificently
> named as "The War of Jenkins' Ear"! Now, that's how to name a war! Clear,
> concise, and everybody knows exactly what it's all about."
> 
> Hey Sterling,
> 
> Hah! remember studies in Western Civ - between Physics and philosophy
> class
> :-) -, really, the USA has darn well so managed to have a war equally
> magnificient in name as the "War of Jenkin's Ear".
> 
> It was called "The War of Jenkin's Ear"; Same Jenkins - and it wasn't
> Jenkin's other ear.  Don't forget that Jenkin's ear was supposedly
> severed
> in the Americas, and he was as English as George Washington at the time.
> So
> I'd Argue that not only did the Americans participate in that war - they
> also started it.  Not to mention the USA started the funiest named war of
> all: The "Quasi-War" as thanks to the French right after the French
> supported the American Independence effort.
> 
> That particular Jenkin's Ear war in the 1740's is actually the same war
> that
> was contracted by the European continent and spread to Bohemia and
> resulted
> in the French tossing the Elbogen Iron meteorite down the to the bottom
> of
> the Bohemian well where it rusted for 40 years.  It was a small world
> back
> then, too.  In the USA, in the great American State of Georgia, the
> military
> general who founded Georgia wasted no time to marshal his proud Savannah
> compatriots and adventurous Charlestonians out of South Carolina to
> pillage
> everything from Jacksonville, Florida to St. Augustine, and that was only
> openers.
> 
> Oh the United States has had oogles more practically nameless wars than
> you
> give it credit for in those years.  They don't Google easily out of a
> database like your nice European ones, but they were bloodier if Indians
> are
> men considered equal in the eyes of the Creator.  You've got to consider
> that in Europe all those wars were spread among 20-30 countries.  How
> many
> Indian real nations do you think the singular USA trounced in a religious
> ferver to achieve its destiny?  The USA is a nation that was perpetually
> at
> war on its own and its extended frontiers.  There are more Indian wars
> alone, than Indian nations that yielded in defeat against the cleansing
> of
> the continent from Atlantic to Pacific.  Take Florida, which heaped war
> upon
> wars, genocide and forced relocation.  Or maybe Missouri - if the Indians
> had caught on quicker, you might be living in a teepee today, or at least
> your neighbor  :-)
> 
> As for the lack of colorful names of wars in the USA even without
> considering who started the War of Jenkin's Ear, does Europe have a
> "Battle
> of Little Bighorn", which is a battle the war easily can assume for the
> name, and really was the fight leading to the demise of a race of people?
> If that isn't enough, how about the Gipper's "Star Wars", who has one of
> those programs besides George Lucas?  And I am convinced that the US
> participated as a silent partner in the infamous "Football War," as
> well...
> 
> Best wishes, Doug
> (no slights to any nation, no offense; we are who we are and I can live
> with
> that just fine, until someone else tosses a spectacular iron in a well to
> fester.  Guess the Evian was too depleted in minerals for their taste)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Sterling K. Webb" <sterling_k_webb at sbcglobal.net>
> To: "Martin Altmann" <altmann at meteorite-martin.de>; "'MexicoDoug'"
> <MexicoDoug at aim.com>; <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
> Sent: Saturday, November 25, 2006 8:34 PM
> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite novels -gifts II
> 
> 
>> Martin Altmann said:
>> 
>>> There were always wars, wars, wars...
>>> funny enough, people now ranting about
>>> the European Union always forget...
>> 
>> 1337-1453 Hundred Years' War
>> 1455-1485 Wars of the Roses
>> 1496-1499 Russo-Swedish War of 1496-1499
>> 1522-1559 Habsburg-Valois Wars
>> 1554-1557 Russo-Swedish War of 1554-1557
>> 1558-1583 Livonian War
>> 1568-1648 Eighty Years' War
>> 1590-1595 Russo-Swedish War of 1590-1595
>> 1594-1603 Nine Years' War (Ireland)
>> 1610-1617 Ingrian War
>> 1618-1648 Thirty Years' War
>> 1641-1649 Wars of Castro
>> 1641-1653 Irish Confederate Wars
>> 1642-1651 English Civil War
>> 1644-1650 Scottish Civil War
>> 1656-1658 Russo-Swedish War of 1656-1658
>> 1667-1668 War of Devolution
>> 1667-1683 Great Turkish War
>> 1688-1691 Williamite War in Ireland
>> 1700-1721 Great Northern War
>> 1701-1713 War of the Spanish Succession
>> 1733-1738 War of the Polish Succession
>> 1739-1740 War of Jenkins' Ear
>> 1740-1748 War of the Austrian Succession
>> 1741-1743 Russo-Swedish War of 1741-1743
>> 1756-1763 Seven Years' War
>> 1788-1790 Russo-Swedish War of 1788-1790
>> 1789-1799 French Revolution
>> 1798 Irish Rebellion of 1798
>> 1792-1815 Napoleonic Wars
>> 1808-1809 Finnish War
>> 1848-1866 Italian Independence wars
>> 1848-1849 First Italian Independence War
>> 1859 Second Italian Independence War
>> 1866 Third Italian Independence War
>> 1854-1856 Crimean War
>> 1866-1866 Austro-Prussian War
>> 1870-1871 Franco-Prussian War
>> 1877-1878 Russo-Turkish War
>> 1893-1896 Cod War of 1893
>> 1897 First Greco-Turkish War
>> 1912-1913 Balkan Wars
>> 1914-1918 World War I
>> 1916 Easter Rising
>> 1917-1920 Estonian Liberation War
>> 1918-1919 Czechoslovakia-Hungary War
>> 1918 Finnish Civil War
>> 1918-1920 Russian Civil War
>> 1919-1921 Irish War of Independence
>> 1922-1923 Irish Civil War
>> 1936-1939 Spanish Civil War
>> 1939-1940 Winter War
>> 1939-1945 World War II
>> 1958 First Cod War
>> 1972-1973 Second Cod War
>> 1974 Turkish Invasion of Cyprus
>> 1975-1976 Third Cod War
>> 1994-1996 First Chechen War
>> 1991 War in Slovenia
>> 1991-1995 Croatian War of Independence
>> 1992-1995 War in Bosnia and Herzegovina
>> 1996-1999 Kosovo War
>> 1999-present Second Chechen War
>> 2001 Conflict in Macedonia
>> 2001 Conflict in Southern Serbia
>> 
>> Only 63 wars in 500 years, or one every 7.94
>> years. Eleven wars in 33 years (1912-1945) is
>> probably a world record. Doesn't count wars
>> that Europeans participated in that didn't take
>> place IN Europe (otherwise the list would be
>> 120, 150, or 200 wars long).
>> 
>> I feel totally abashed. The USA has only had
>> 14 or 15 wars in 225 years, if you count our
>> War for Independency, John Adams' undeclared
>> naval war on France in 1798, two "wars" with
>> Barbary pirates, the Whiskey Rebellion (whiskey
>> lost, BTW), and all the wars we participated in
>> that were outside the United States. We've never
>> managed to have a war 100 years long or even
>> 30 years long (although we seem to be trying to
>> do that in Iraq). And we've certainly never managed
>> to have a war as magnificently named as "The
>> War of Jenkins' Ear"! Now, that's how to name
>> a war! Clear, concise, and everybody knows
>> exactly what it's all about.
>> 
>> 
>> Sterling K. Webb
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Martin Altmann" <altmann at meteorite-martin.de>
>> To: "'MexicoDoug'" <MexicoDoug at aim.com>;
>> <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
>> Sent: Saturday, November 25, 2006 1:27 PM
>> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite novels -gifts II
>> 
>> 
>> Hi Doug,
>> 
>> so flagrant is my commercialism not.
>> Yes, I do have a slice of Elbogen left for sale, but I guess, if you'd
>> ask
>> Dieter Heinlein, you would pay 10$ less per gram.
>> 
>> For the spelling of uncle Alois I always find two variants:
>> 
>> "Widmanstätten"
>> (with a single "n" and the German letter for the diphthong, the "a" with
>> the
>> 2 dots above) or
>> 
>> "Beck-Widmannstetter".
>> Which one was more in use? I don't know. We have to ask the list-members
>> from Austria to look in the specific biographical lexika.
>> 
>> There still exists several descendants today, they spell themselves
>> "Beckh-Widmannstetter".
>> 
>> Ehm, Doug, the story with the font is different.
>> It's the most famous and incredible meteorite legend in history.
>> 
>> Be prepared!
>> 
>> There was a prophecy about the Burggraf-Klumpen.
>> It said, whenever it will be let down into the font of Loket castle,
>> it will come up again.
>> 
>> Well, so once it was let down in the font, and after a while, they tore
>> him
>> out gain.
>> 
>> Spooky, isn't it Doug?
>> 
>> I forgot where I read that story and also why the chunk was hidden at
>> which
>> opportunity.
>> Whether it was in the Napoleonic wars, or whether Wallenstein wanted to
>> found bullets out of it, whether some Hussites were hiding it...
>> 
>> There were always wars, wars, wars...funny enough, people now ranting
>> about
>> the European Union always forget, in what for a privileged situation
>> they're
>> living. 60 years without greater wars.
>> 
>> Buckleboo!
>> Martin
>> 
>> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
>> Von: meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com
>> [mailto:meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von
>> MexicoDoug
>> Gesendet: Freitag, 24. November 2006 22:32
>> An: Martin Altmann
>> Cc: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com
>> Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite novels -gifts II
>> 
>> OK, Martin, Nice post, I'm convinced that, if I can ever possess a
>> specimen
>> of Elbogen, I won't have any choice than to acquire it from one of
>> Chladni's
>> 
>> authentic airs.:-)
>> 
>> You mentioned our Widmannstaetten: Alois Beck Edler von
>> Widmannstetter....
>> 
>> I was very curious about the spelling you used, an alternate from that
>> which
>> 
>> we are accustomed...Can you tell us Teutonically challenged volks a
>> little
>> about the reason for this difference?
>> 
>> Ahhh, and those kind and ever-so-considerate Frenchmen.  Why do you
>> suppose
>> they would have mocked so cruelly their Bohemian hosts by spitefully
>> lifting
>> 
>> up the unliftable Elbogen iron meteorite and tossing it into a well to
>> languish there for decades?  Was it simply with the arrogance to say,
>> "Non,
>> nous'sommes non so greedyyyy, looooouky, devons-nous procéder à toss
>> your
>> rrrevered Cloompain to zz bottom of z pit where he can hhhrrust
>> avay....oui
>> oui , ou la laaaa, Kaput et Voilà  La Boheme!! "   No wonder the
>> Austrians
>> taught those savage beastly French a lesson in humility and kicked them
>> out
>> on their derrières shortly afterward... for which the French rewarded
>> them
>> later by overrunning Munich.  Well being the Francophile I am, and still
>> astonished this could happen, I must say in their defense that the
>> French
>> Secret Order of the Guardians of Ensisheim has brought back great honor
>> and
>> civility upon their countrymen after that fateful moment of the
>> aggression
>> of Elbogen...
>> 
>> Best wishes,
>> Doug
>> 
>> PS nice post Matthias, too!
>> 
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Martin Altmann" <altmann at meteorite-martin.de>
>> To: "'MexicoDoug'" <MexicoDoug at aim.com>;
>> <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
>> Sent: Friday, November 24, 2006 2:42 PM
>> Subject: AW: [meteorite-list] Meteorite novels -gifts II
>> 
>> 
>> Hola Doug,
>> 
>> yah and the Grimm brothers weren't only collectors of tales, but titans
>> of
>> linguistics in writing the first modern comprehensive German dictionary.
>> 
>> Btw. Widmannstetter used Elbogen for his direct printing of his famous
>> Thopmson structures.
>> 
>> Goethe celebrated his 75th birthday on the castle of Elbogen (Loket),
>> I'm
>> not sure, whether he saw the Klumpen still there.
>> Anyway, when ha was young and visited the stone of Ensisheim in the
>> church,
>> he made pubertal fooling about the people being so superstitious.
>> 
>> Again, if once Vassiliev won't be so busy anymore, he has to found a
>> meteorite fair on Loket castle. Nice counterpart to Ensisheim.
>> 
>> Huh, I think I'm a capital sinner, I don't think, that I would be able
>> to
>> lift a Klumpen of more than 2 hundredweights...
>> 
>> At least in the stories (there exist another version of the Burggraf
>> metamorphosis) there are some slight meteoritical appeals: Thunder,
>> Sounds,
>> light, a pit...
>> 
>> Buckleboo!
>> Martin
>> 
>> PS: There must be another story from that Klumpen, that it was hidden in
>> the
>> font of the castle - perhaps during the Napoleonic wars?
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
> >Von: MexicoDoug [mailto:MexicoDoug at aim.com]
>> Gesendet: Freitag, 24. November 2006 20:08
>> An: Martin Altmann
>> Cc: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com
>> Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite novels -gifts II
>> 
>> Hi Martin,
>> 
>> Thanks for the Buckleboo!  It had become such a familiar part of the
>> list,
>> like an attention-getting favorite family member I started to miss
>> it....
>> 
>> Now, whoever said German couldn't be a consonant language, hasn't read
>> enough of "Klumpen klingenden Metall" and such.  Those Grimm boys really
>> provided a capsule of time, the scientists they were, so far ahead in
>> educating toddling future meteoriticists.  Thanks for the tale of the
>> Bohemian iron Elbogen, the year assumed ca. 1400 witnessed fall that was
>> recorded more as conversion of a greedy baron than a meteoritical tale.
>> One
>> 
>> wonders what Widmaenstatten was really out to discover when he stuck a
>> slab
>> of Elbogen in a Bunsen Burner to see what would happen. It must have
>> been
>> quite a BuckleBOO! for Widmaenstatten to see the steely Baron's jailbars
>> and
>> 
>> bones developing in the flame of that bewitching Klumpen of Metall.
>> This
>> relationship of meteorites to avariciousness and piousness illustrated
>> here
>> and in the Grimms' tale is pleasantly enlightening.
>> 
>> One can see the original view of the of the Burggraf that Widmanstaetten
>> saw
>> 
>> courtesy of Jörn Koblitz here:
>> http://www.metbase.de/printable/images/schreibers3_650.jpg
>> 
>> And Chladni himself had an etched knife forged from Elbogen which is now
>> at
>> the Berlin Museum for any or all the motivated to see!
>> http://euromin.w3sites.net/Nouveau_site/musees/berlin/Website-dt/Elbogen.htm
>> l
>> 
>> And another book to possibly add to the list:
>> 
>> KNAGSTED by Gustev Wied
>> Finally, here's another book you don't have to buy and can read online,
>> Knagsted, by the Danish novelist Gustav Wied.  That is, if you can at
>> least
>> read Rigsdansk... It was a satire published in 1902 and is based in part
>> on
>> the Elbogen legends...
>> Excerpt: **"Samt (hvad der er forbavsende interessant): "Der verwünschte
>> Burggraf" (en ond og haard Borgherre, der "in grauer Vorzeit" paa
>> Foranledning af sin Umenneskelighed og en fattig Kones indtrængende Bøn
>> til
>> Gud blev forvandlet til) "ein ursprünglich 108 kg schwerer Meteorstein
>> von
>> der Gestalt eines Pferdekopfes. Gegenwürtig aber ist nur der kleinere
>> etwa
>> 22 kg schwere Theil desselben zu sehen, während sich der grÖssere im k.
>> k.
>> Hof-Naturaliencabinet in Wien befindet" ...**
>> 
>> complete Danish text (Lars, please help!):
>> http://www.bjornetjenesten.dk/teksterdk/knagsted.htm
>> 
>> Marty, You've really earned your Austral-Germaniac heiritage today...
>> Congratulations !!!
>> 
>> Notice of my special request is kindly appreciated,
>> Buckleboo too,
>> Dougy
>> 
>> 
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Martin Altmann" <altmann at meteorite-martin.de>
>> To: "'MexicoDoug'" <MexicoDoug at aim.com>;
>> <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
>> Sent: Friday, November 24, 2006 4:43 AM
>> Subject: AW: [meteorite-list] Meteorite novels -gifts II
>> 
>> 
>> Hi Doug,
>> 
>> apropos Grimm bros.
>> Did you know, that they mentioned a very famous meteorite in their
>> collection of German folk tales (1816-1818)?
>> 
>> "Auch zeigt man auf dem Rathause zu Elbogen noch jetzt die verbannten
>> ruchlosen und goldgeizigen Burggrafen in einem Klumpen klingenden
>> Metall.
>> Der Sage nach soll niemand, der mit einer Todsünde befleckt ist, diesen
>> Klumpen in die Höhe heben können."
>> 
>> Uuuh my poor English, a Matteo version could read like this:
>> 
>> "Also, in the townhall of Elbogen still today the banned heinous and
>> gold-greedy burgraves are exhibited in a lump of clinking metal.
>> Acording to legend nobody, who's imbrued by a capital sin, will be able
>> to
>> lift this lump."
>> 
>> To translate the tale of the metamorphosis of the Burgrave into the
>> meteorite, I leave to others (Peter, Bernd?):
>> 
>> Der verwunschene Markgraf von Elbogen
>> 
>>        In grauer Vorzeit herrschte über Elbogen ein gar harter Mann, der
>> Markgraf von Vohburg, der seine Untertanen und Diener, besonders die
>> Bewohner der Robitsch - einer Elbogener Gegend - mit schwerem Frondienst
>> bedrückte. Konnte einer den Willen des strengen Herren nicht nachkommen,
>> wurde er sicherlich in den Turm geworfen und jämmerlich gezüchtigt. Über
>> dem
>> Haupttor der Burg ließ er eine Glocke befestigen, welche zur harten
>> Arbeit
>> rief. Zu Anfang ertönte sie wohl selten, später aber immer häufiger;
>> denn
>> der Markgraf wurde immer grausamer und habsüchtiger, das Mitleid schien
>> gänzlich von ihm gewichen zu sein.
>>        Eines Sonntagmorgens stand er über dem Tor und beobachtete die in
>> das nahe Gotteshaus wandelnden Scharen. Und es traf sich, dass eine arme
>> Witwe ihm an diesem Tag eine Zahlung zu leisten hatte, sie hatte aber
>> nichts, dass sie diese hätte entrichten können. Vielleicht, dachte sie,
>> stimmt die heilige Sonntagsfeier den strengen Gebieter etwas zum
>> Mitleid,
>> und ging mit ihren unmündigen Kindern an der Hand, zu ihm hin und bat
>> flehend um Nachsicht und Barmherzigkeit. "Habet Erbarmen mit mir! Der
>> Ernährer der Familie ist gestorben und die Arbeit meiner Hände reicht
>> eben
>> nur kümmerlich hin, mich und diese Waisen zu erhalten!"
>>        Das Angesicht des Markgrafen verfinsterte sich bei der Rede wie
>> der
>> Himmel, der sich eben mit schweren Gewitterwolken umzog. Die arme Witwe
>> bat
>> nochmals und auch die Kleinen erhoben zu ihm ihre Hände. Doch das Herz
>> des
>> Herren blieb unbewegt und ließ sich durch den Jammer dieser Armen nicht
>> erweichen. Zornesglut erfüllte sein Antlitz und seine Stimme donnerte
>> auf
>> sie herab: "Hinweg aus meinen Augen! Zahle was Du schuldig bist, sonnst
>> lasse ich Dich in den Turm werfen!" Da raffte sich das Weib empor und
>> rief,
>> während das Donnern durch das Tal dröhnte, dem Fühllosen zu: "Weh` Dir,
>> Vohburg! In dieser Stunde noch wirst Du in Stein verwandelt werden".
>>        Ein Schrei scholl durch die Lüfte - der Markgraf war verschwunden
>> und dort, vor er stand, lag ein Klumpen - der verwunschene Markgraf von
>> Elbogen.
>> 
>> from
>> Stanilav Burachovic: Sagen der Karlsbader Landschaft
>> 
>> 
>> Martin, on your special request: Buckleboo!
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> -------
>> STAR MONEY by the Bros. Altmann (jeje)
>> A short fable summarized by our very favorite Germans, based on the
>> original
>> 
>> which was probably much older than the 1803 L'Aigle fall itself.  Gives
>> great insight to cultural fantasies of the significance of meteorites in
>> the
>> 
>> deep recesses of human thought.  Interestingly, in an odd twist, it
>> personifies what we all yearn in meteorite hunting in one form or
>> another...READ THE ENGLISH translation free here, no need to buy the
>> book,
>> compiled by the namsake of Chladni's heirs:  Story featured in Nation
>> Geographic:
>> 
>> http://www.nationalgeographic.com/grimm/star_money2.html
>> 
>> Best wishes, Doug
>> 
>> ______________________________________________
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> 
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