[meteorite-list] Meteorite unclassified

Sat Jul 27 21:35:46 EDT 2024

Hi Anne. Thanks for the agreement. I would be the Martin from The Accretion
Desk.

Best.

On Sat, Jul 27, 2024 at 6:54 PM Anne Black <impactika at aol.com> wrote:

> Thank you Martin (but which Martin are you?)
> And YES I agree entirely with you. 2  very big issues there:
> Classification, and Trust.
> Anybody else?
>
> Anne Black
> IMPACTIKA.com
> impactika at aol.com
>
>
> On Saturday, July 27, 2024 at 04:29:18 PM MDT, Swan Valley Bushcraft via
> Meteorite-list <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com> wrote:
>
>
> I’m pretty good with sugar donuts too. I can tell a sugar donut from a
> muffin from a scone at a distance. And I can tell a red wine from a white
> by smell alone. But those are the same rough physical characteristics we
> used 150 years ago. They worked well for telling the difference between
> stones and irons but things got complicated quickly. Many of us have bought
> unclassified meteorites without hesitation feeling confident that the rock
> was in fact a meteorite. But while I have strong suspicions about a further
> or deeper classification, I feel it would be irresponsible to suggest
> anything more specific if selling the piece especially if mentioning a
> classification outside ordinary chondrite. That said, the trust issues that
> the meteorite collecting community faces are certainly far beyond informed
> guesses about unclassified material.
>
> Best
> Martin
>
>
> On Sat, Jul 27, 2024 at 2:53 AM Ineed Moresleep via Meteorite-list <
> meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com> wrote:
>
>
> 
> 
> 
> Hello there meteorite list-serve members!
>
> This may seem like an oddball offering, but I’ve got a box of sugar donuts
> for sale if anyone’s interested. At least, I think they’re sugar donuts. I
> haven’t actually opened the box to check, but based on my own donut
> experience, I can  tell you with fairly reasonable certainty that these are
> most likely sugar donuts. They smell like sugar donuts and some of the
> crumbly crumbs that have fallen out of the box look like the sugary
> sprinkles that sugar donuts always have. Plus, I got them from a guy who
> buys his donuts on this street that has a bunch of Lamar’s donuts shops
> that run sugar donuts specials on Saturdays, and he almost always gets the
> special on that street.
>
> I know that there’s a number of you who’d rather know for certain what
> kind of donut you’re buying, so this box probably isn’t for you. But there
> are also lots of people who’d just be happy to have a donut. That’s the
> market I’m looking to sell this box to. And they’ll just take my word that
> this is a box of sugar donuts unless they actually want to open the box and
> find out for sure themselves after they buy it.
>
> Cheers!
>
> Stephanie Copeland
>
> On Jul 25, 2024, at 11:29 PM, meteorite-list-request at meteoritecentral.com
> wrote:
>
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>
> Today's Topics:
>
>   1. Re: Meteorite unclassified (Anne Black)
>   2. Re: Meteorite unclassified (Graham Ensor)
>   3. Meteorite Picture of the Day (paul at tucsonmeteorites.com)
>   4. Re: Meteorite unclassified (Anne Black)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2024 01:21:54 +0000 (UTC)
> From: Anne Black <impactika at aol.com>
> To: Rhett Bourland <rhett.bourland at gmail.com>,  Graham Ensor
>    <graham.ensor at gmail.com>
> Cc: Meteorite List <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite unclassified
> Message-ID: <1555549355.2141845.1721870514727 at mail.yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> Sorry Graham, I do have provenance for all of mine.
>
> Anne Black
> IMPACTIKA.comimpactika at aol.com
>
>
>    On Wednesday, July 24, 2024 at 04:27:21 PM MDT, Graham Ensor via
> Meteorite-list <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com> wrote:
>
> just an addition...an example.
> Would people buy one of these Allende meteorites or similar from other
> dealers pages which I think we are all pretty confident are Allende's...but
> I'm pretty sure these were just fond in the same strewnfield and have not
> been analysed to make sure.
> https://impactika.com/product/allende-carbonaceous/
> Graham
>
> On Tue, Jul 23, 2024 at 4:46?PM Rhett Bourland <rhett.bourland at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> Honestly, just because a meteorite is found in a known strewn field
> doesn't automatically make it part of the same fall.? Twink Monrad found
> Golden Rule and Golden Mile in the Gold Basin strewn field.? Calcalong
> Creek was originally sold as part of the Camel Donga strew field.? NWA482
> was originally thought to be a eucrite.? The folks who go to Antarctica
> each year go back to the same areas to find more because of the way
> glaciers move.
> When talking about how not getting everything classified is bad for
> science, that isn't just about common material being sold as something much
> rarer.? The real danger is rare and scientifically important pieces being
> sold as something more common.
> On Tue, Jul 23, 2024, 10:22?AM Graham Ensor <graham.ensor at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> I see no problem in anybody saying a probable meteorite is unclassified
> but is likely to be a certain type. It is no different on line or throught
> the met list than traveling through Morocco or visiting a show, looking at
> hundreds of unclassified probable meteorites, and discussing the likelyhood
> of that or what type they may be with the seller. That's the way many
> dealers work to find unusual types that then get taken further to be
> officially classified. I see no fault with a NWA seller working in this
> way. The The fault comes if buyer does not then get it analysed or
> classified and tries to sell it on as an authentic classified meteorite.
> There are also thousands of meteorites amongst the hundreds of collections
> that came through NWA dealers from established large strewnfields which sit
> there as examples of a variety of falls/finds and have never been cut and
> classified. Just found as part of a new fall/find as it's impossible for
> every piece to be classified....examples are Chelya
> binsk, Ribbeck, Erg Chech 002, Tissint, Holbrook,...the list is endless. I
> suspect very few collections consist of specimens where each individual has
> been classified and most have individuals of those I've mentioned (or
> others) that have never seen a scientist. If you are new to meteorites or
> have very little experience then this is probably not the avenue for you to
> buy for a collection unless you are happy to go to the trouble of getting
> analysis done.
> G
>
> On Tue, Jul 23, 2024 at 2:32?PM Rhett Bourland via Meteorite-list <
> meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com> wrote:
>
> Educated guesses aren't classifications.? Nobody can do that.? I've got
> close to a couple hundred pieces in my collection that I've built up over
> the past 25 years.? I own classes of meteorites that most museums don't
> even have because the museums that I got them from told me where the other
> pieces were.? I can safely say that I have handled and seen even more in
> that time.? The IMCA got started in my living room. I wouldn't even call
> something a meteorite unless it got tested.? As Anne Black recently said,
> people guessing what they have and presenting it as such is nothing but
> harmful for the science and commercial trade of these rocks and that woman
> has seen and handled stuff that I can only dream of.
> On Mon, Jul 22, 2024, 3:37?PM <mendy.ouzillou at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> Rhett,
>
> ?
>
> Our North African meteorite family has earned the right to make educated
> guesses, especially after they have proven themselves to be reputable
> dealers AND have examined the specimen. They have handled far more
> meteorites than most dealers and collectors. There is no surprise that
> they, and Mohamed in particular, can tell the difference between a CO and
> another type of meteorite. Mohamed was fully transparent and clearly stated
> that it is unclassified. There is nothing inauthentic about the posting.
>
> ?
>
> I have no ulterior motive in responding to this post other than desiring
> respectful discourse.
>
> ?
>
> Sincerely,
>
> ?
>
> Mendy
>
> ?
>
> From: Meteorite-list <meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com> On
> Behalf Of Rhett Bourland via Meteorite-list
> Sent: Saturday, July 20, 2024 9:53 AM
> To: Benzaki Mohamed <kemkemexpedition at gmail.com>
> Cc: Meteorite List <Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite unclassified
>
> ?
>
> It's unclassified and yet you're calling it a CO?? That doesn't sound very
> authentic to me.
>
> ?
>
> On Sat, Jul 20, 2024, 10:17?AM Benzaki Mohamed via Meteorite-list <
> meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com> wrote:
>
>
> Hi all members hop have a good day.
>
> ?Everyone interested will be interested by a largeste co carbonaceous
> unclassified please contacte? me.all beste.?
>
> ______________________________________________
> Meteorite-list mailing list
> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com
> https://pairlist2.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
>
>
> ______________________________________________
> Meteorite-list mailing list
> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com
> https://pairlist2.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
>
>
>
> ______________________________________________
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> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com
> https://pairlist2.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
>
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2024 08:16:04 +0100
> From: Graham Ensor <graham.ensor at gmail.com>
> To: Anne Black <impactika at aol.com>
> Cc: Rhett Bourland <rhett.bourland at gmail.com>,  Meteorite List
>    <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite unclassified
> Message-ID:
>    <CAJkn+kYu6v4kw5USOxxUZSp6jK_HCwn_1ERnL+2z5anhirc7Kg at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> Yes, sorry Anne if you thought I was being critical...I'm not....that's
> what I was saying...you have individuals that can be traced back to the
> finder in that strewnfield most likely..I'm not doubting the provenances
> you have but have all those individuals have been analysed? Much the same
> as some of the very trustworthy educated and experienced Moroccan dealers
> and many other dealers and collectors selling individuals....so then buyers
> are happy to buy those individuals. Unless I am wrong and somehow all those
> individuals have each been analysed scientifically without cutting them? I
> have a wonderful David New individual Allende but I doubt it has ever been
> analysed properly to confirm that....I also have a wonderful uncut,
> individual Millbillilie from you which I'm confident is what it is without
> analysis.
>
> G
>
> Graham
>
> On Thu, Jul 25, 2024 at 2:21?AM Anne Black <impactika at aol.com> wrote:
>
> > Sorry Graham, I do have provenance for all of mine.
> >
> >
> > Anne Black
> >
> > IMPACTIKA.com
> > impactika at aol.com
> >
> >
> > On Wednesday, July 24, 2024 at 04:27:21 PM MDT, Graham Ensor via
> > Meteorite-list <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> > just an addition...an example.
> >
> > Would people buy one of these Allende meteorites or similar from other
> > dealers pages which I think we are all pretty confident are
> Allende's...but
> > I'm pretty sure these were just fond in the same strewnfield and have not
> > been analysed to make sure.
> >
> > https://impactika.com/product/allende-carbonaceous/
> >
> > Graham
> >
> > On Tue, Jul 23, 2024 at 4:46?PM Rhett Bourland <rhett.bourland at gmail.com
> >
> > wrote:
> >
> > Honestly, just because a meteorite is found in a known strewn field
> > doesn't automatically make it part of the same fall.  Twink Monrad found
> > Golden Rule and Golden Mile in the Gold Basin strewn field.  Calcalong
> > Creek was originally sold as part of the Camel Donga strew field.  NWA482
> > was originally thought to be a eucrite.  The folks who go to Antarctica
> > each year go back to the same areas to find more because of the way
> > glaciers move.
> >
> > When talking about how not getting everything classified is bad for
> > science, that isn't just about common material being sold as something
> much
> > rarer.  The real danger is rare and scientifically important pieces being
> > sold as something more common.
> >
> > On Tue, Jul 23, 2024, 10:22?AM Graham Ensor <graham.ensor at gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > I see no problem in anybody saying a probable meteorite is unclassified
> > but is likely to be a certain type. It is no different on line or
> throught
> > the met list than traveling through Morocco or visiting a show, looking
> at
> > hundreds of unclassified probable meteorites, and discussing the
> likelyhood
> > of that or what type they may be with the seller. That's the way many
> > dealers work to find unusual types that then get taken further to be
> > officially classified. I see no fault with a NWA seller working in this
> > way. The The fault comes if buyer does not then get it analysed or
> > classified and tries to sell it on as an authentic classified meteorite.
> > There are also thousands of meteorites amongst the hundreds of
> collections
> > that came through NWA dealers from established large strewnfields which
> sit
> > there as examples of a variety of falls/finds and have never been cut and
> > classified. Just found as part of a new fall/find as it's impossible for
> > every piece to be classified....examples are Chelyabinsk, Ribbeck, Erg
> > Chech 002, Tissint, Holbrook,...the list is endless. I suspect very few
> > collections consist of specimens where each individual has been
> classified
> > and most have individuals of those I've mentioned (or others) that have
> > never seen a scientist. If you are new to meteorites or have very little
> > experience then this is probably not the avenue for you to buy for a
> > collection unless you are happy to go to the trouble of getting analysis
> > done.
> >
> > G
> >
> > On Tue, Jul 23, 2024 at 2:32?PM Rhett Bourland via Meteorite-list <
> > meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com> wrote:
> >
> > Educated guesses aren't classifications.  Nobody can do that.  I've got
> > close to a couple hundred pieces in my collection that I've built up over
> > the past 25 years.  I own classes of meteorites that most museums don't
> > even have because the museums that I got them from told me where the
> other
> > pieces were.  I can safely say that I have handled and seen even more in
> > that time.  The IMCA got started in my living room. I wouldn't even call
> > something a meteorite unless it got tested.  As Anne Black recently said,
> > people guessing what they have and presenting it as such is nothing but
> > harmful for the science and commercial trade of these rocks and that
> woman
> > has seen and handled stuff that I can only dream of.
> >
> > On Mon, Jul 22, 2024, 3:37?PM <mendy.ouzillou at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > Rhett,
> >
> >
> >
> > Our North African meteorite family has earned the right to make educated
> > guesses, especially after they have proven themselves to be reputable
> > dealers AND have examined the specimen. They have handled far more
> > meteorites than most dealers and collectors. There is no surprise that
> > they, and Mohamed in particular, can tell the difference between a CO and
> > another type of meteorite. Mohamed was fully transparent and clearly
> stated
> > that it is unclassified. There is nothing inauthentic about the posting.
> >
> >
> >
> > I have no ulterior motive in responding to this post other than desiring
> > respectful discourse.
> >
> >
> >
> > Sincerely,
> >
> >
> >
> > Mendy
> >
> >
> >
> > *From:* Meteorite-list <meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com> *On
> > Behalf Of *Rhett Bourland via Meteorite-list
> > *Sent:* Saturday, July 20, 2024 9:53 AM
> > *To:* Benzaki Mohamed <kemkemexpedition at gmail.com>
> > *Cc:* Meteorite List <Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
> > *Subject:* Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite unclassified
> >
> >
> >
> > It's unclassified and yet you're calling it a CO?  That doesn't sound
> very
> > authentic to me.
> >
> >
> >
> > On Sat, Jul 20, 2024, 10:17?AM Benzaki Mohamed via Meteorite-list <
> > meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com> wrote:
> >
> > Hi all members hop have a good day.
> >
> > Everyone interested will be interested by a largeste co carbonaceous
> > unclassified please contacte  me.all beste.
> >
> > ______________________________________________
> > Meteorite-list mailing list
> > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com
> > https://pairlist2.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
> >
> > ______________________________________________
> > Meteorite-list mailing list
> > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com
> > https://pairlist2.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
> >
> > ______________________________________________
> > Meteorite-list mailing list
> > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com
> > https://pairlist2.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2024 00:35:55 -0700
> From: <paul at tucsonmeteorites.com>
> To: <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
> Subject: [meteorite-list] Meteorite Picture of the Day
> Message-ID: <3646C7946BA841C096EA7E2BD11044F2 at secureserver.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Thursday, Jul 25 2024 Meteorite Picture of the Day: Orange River
>
> Contributed by: jnmczurich
>
> http://www.tucsonmeteorites.com/mpodmain.asp?DD=07/25/2024
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2024 16:49:18 +0000 (UTC)
> From: Anne Black <impactika at aol.com>
> To: Graham Ensor <graham.ensor at gmail.com>
> Cc: Rhett Bourland <rhett.bourland at gmail.com>,  Meteorite List
>    <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite unclassified
> Message-ID: <1812802914.1566899.1721926158892 at mail.yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> Thank you Graham.As we both know it is extremely difficult to be
> absolutely sure of what we have and our sources no matter how hard we try,
> and I do wish that all meteorites were handled the way Almahata Sitta
> (thank you Siegfried Haberer and Addi Bishop) and Twannberg (Thank you Marc
> Jost and Beda Hoffman) are, verified and numbered. Time consuming but
> certainly worth it.?
> Also:Most of those new meteorites transit through Morocco. Hasna
> Chennaoui-Aoudjehane, who is certainly an expert, is right there at the
> University Hassan II in Casablanca, why isn't she asked to help and check
> those meteorites???
> Anne BlackIMPACTIKA.comimpactika at aol.com
>
>
>    On Thursday, July 25, 2024 at 01:16:17 AM MDT, Graham Ensor <
> graham.ensor at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Yes, sorry Anne if you thought I was being critical...I'm not....that's
> what I was saying...you have individuals that can be traced back to the
> finder in that strewnfield most likely..I'm not doubting the provenances
> you have but have all those individuals have been analysed? Much the same
> as some of the very trustworthy educated and experienced Moroccan dealers
> and many other dealers and collectors selling individuals....so then buyers
> are happy to buy those individuals. Unless I am wrong and somehow all those
> individuals have each been analysed scientifically without cutting them? I
> have a wonderful David New individual Allende but I doubt it has ever been
> analysed properly to confirm that....I also have a wonderful uncut,
> individual Millbillilie from you which I'm confident is what it is without
> analysis.
> G
>
> Graham
>
> On Thu, Jul 25, 2024 at 2:21?AM Anne Black <impactika at aol.com> wrote:
>
> Sorry Graham, I do have provenance for all of mine.
>
> Anne Black
> IMPACTIKA.comimpactika at aol.com
>
>
>    On Wednesday, July 24, 2024 at 04:27:21 PM MDT, Graham Ensor via
> Meteorite-list <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com> wrote:
>
> just an addition...an example.
> Would people buy one of these Allende meteorites or similar from other
> dealers pages which I think we are all pretty confident are Allende's...but
> I'm pretty sure these were just fond in the same strewnfield and have not
> been analysed to make sure.
> https://impactika.com/product/allende-carbonaceous/
> Graham
>
> On Tue, Jul 23, 2024 at 4:46?PM Rhett Bourland <rhett.bourland at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> Honestly, just because a meteorite is found in a known strewn field
> doesn't automatically make it part of the same fall.? Twink Monrad found
> Golden Rule and Golden Mile in the Gold Basin strewn field.? Calcalong
> Creek was originally sold as part of the Camel Donga strew field.? NWA482
> was originally thought to be a eucrite.? The folks who go to Antarctica
> each year go back to the same areas to find more because of the way
> glaciers move.
> When talking about how not getting everything classified is bad for
> science, that isn't just about common material being sold as something much
> rarer.? The real danger is rare and scientifically important pieces being
> sold as something more common.
> On Tue, Jul 23, 2024, 10:22?AM Graham Ensor <graham.ensor at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> I see no problem in anybody saying a probable meteorite is unclassified
> but is likely to be a certain type. It is no different on line or throught
> the met list than traveling through Morocco or visiting a show, looking at
> hundreds of unclassified probable meteorites, and discussing the likelyhood
> of that or what type they may be with the seller. That's the way many
> dealers work to find unusual types that then get taken further to be
> officially classified. I see no fault with a NWA seller working in this
> way. The The fault comes if buyer does not then get it analysed or
> classified and tries to sell it on as an authentic classified meteorite.
> There are also thousands of meteorites amongst the hundreds of collections
> that came through NWA dealers from established large strewnfields which sit
> there as examples of a variety of falls/finds and have never been cut and
> classified. Just found as part of a new fall/find as it's impossible for
> every piece to be classified....examples are Chelya
> binsk, Ribbeck, Erg Chech 002, Tissint, Holbrook,...the list is endless. I
> suspect very few collections consist of specimens where each individual has
> been classified and most have individuals of those I've mentioned (or
> others) that have never seen a scientist. If you are new to meteorites or
> have very little experience then this is probably not the avenue for you to
> buy for a collection unless you are happy to go to the trouble of getting
> analysis done.
> G
>
> On Tue, Jul 23, 2024 at 2:32?PM Rhett Bourland via Meteorite-list <
> meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com> wrote:
>
> Educated guesses aren't classifications.? Nobody can do that.? I've got
> close to a couple hundred pieces in my collection that I've built up over
> the past 25 years.? I own classes of meteorites that most museums don't
> even have because the museums that I got them from told me where the other
> pieces were.? I can safely say that I have handled and seen even more in
> that time.? The IMCA got started in my living room. I wouldn't even call
> something a meteorite unless it got tested.? As Anne Black recently said,
> people guessing what they have and presenting it as such is nothing but
> harmful for the science and commercial trade of these rocks and that woman
> has seen and handled stuff that I can only dream of.
> On Mon, Jul 22, 2024, 3:37?PM <mendy.ouzillou at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> Rhett,
>
> ?
>
> Our North African meteorite family has earned the right to make educated
> guesses, especially after they have proven themselves to be reputable
> dealers AND have examined the specimen. They have handled far more
> meteorites than most dealers and collectors. There is no surprise that
> they, and Mohamed in particular, can tell the difference between a CO and
> another type of meteorite. Mohamed was fully transparent and clearly stated
> that it is unclassified. There is nothing inauthentic about the posting.
>
> ?
>
> I have no ulterior motive in responding to this post other than desiring
> respectful discourse.
>
> ?
>
> Sincerely,
>
> ?
>
> Mendy
>
> ?
>
> From: Meteorite-list <meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com> On
> Behalf Of Rhett Bourland via Meteorite-list
> Sent: Saturday, July 20, 2024 9:53 AM
> To: Benzaki Mohamed <kemkemexpedition at gmail.com>
> Cc: Meteorite List <Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite unclassified
>
> ?
>
> It's unclassified and yet you're calling it a CO?? That doesn't sound very
> authentic to me.
>
> ?
>
> On Sat, Jul 20, 2024, 10:17?AM Benzaki Mohamed via Meteorite-list <
> meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com> wrote:
>
>
> Hi all members hop have a good day.
>
> ?Everyone interested will be interested by a largeste co carbonaceous
> unclassified please contacte? me.all beste.?
>
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