[meteorite-list] Meteorite unclassified

[Swan Valley Bushcraft]

I’m pretty good with sugar donuts too. I can tell a sugar donut from a
muffin from a scone at a distance. And I can tell a red wine from a white
by smell alone. But those are the same rough physical characteristics we
used 150 years ago. They worked well for telling the difference between
stones and irons but things got complicated quickly. Many of us have bought
unclassified meteorites without hesitation feeling confident that the rock
was in fact a meteorite. But while I have strong suspicions about a further
or deeper classification, I feel it would be irresponsible to suggest
anything more specific if selling the piece especially if mentioning a
classification outside ordinary chondrite. That said, the trust issues that
the meteorite collecting community faces are certainly far beyond informed
guesses about unclassified material.

Best
Martin


On Sat, Jul 27, 2024 at 2:53 AM Ineed Moresleep via Meteorite-list <
meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com> wrote:

>
> 
> 
> 
> Hello there meteorite list-serve members!
>
> This may seem like an oddball offering, but I’ve got a box of sugar donuts
> for sale if anyone’s interested. At least, I think they’re sugar donuts. I
> haven’t actually opened the box to check, but based on my own donut
> experience, I can  tell you with fairly reasonable certainty that these are
> most likely sugar donuts. They smell like sugar donuts and some of the
> crumbly crumbs that have fallen out of the box look like the sugary
> sprinkles that sugar donuts always have. Plus, I got them from a guy who
> buys his donuts on this street that has a bunch of Lamar’s donuts shops
> that run sugar donuts specials on Saturdays, and he almost always gets the
> special on that street.
>
> I know that there’s a number of you who’d rather know for certain what
> kind of donut you’re buying, so this box probably isn’t for you. But there
> are also lots of people who’d just be happy to have a donut. That’s the
> market I’m looking to sell this box to. And they’ll just take my word that
> this is a box of sugar donuts unless they actually want to open the box and
> find out for sure themselves after they buy it.
>
> Cheers!
>
> Stephanie Copeland
>
> On Jul 25, 2024, at 11:29 PM, meteorite-list-request at meteoritecentral.com
> wrote:
>
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>
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>
> Today's Topics:
>
>   1. Re: Meteorite unclassified (Anne Black)
>   2. Re: Meteorite unclassified (Graham Ensor)
>   3. Meteorite Picture of the Day (paul at tucsonmeteorites.com)
>   4. Re: Meteorite unclassified (Anne Black)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2024 01:21:54 +0000 (UTC)
> From: Anne Black <impactika at aol.com>
> To: Rhett Bourland <rhett.bourland at gmail.com>,  Graham Ensor
>    <graham.ensor at gmail.com>
> Cc: Meteorite List <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite unclassified
> Message-ID: <1555549355.2141845.1721870514727 at mail.yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> Sorry Graham, I do have provenance for all of mine.
>
> Anne Black
> IMPACTIKA.comimpactika at aol.com
>
>
>    On Wednesday, July 24, 2024 at 04:27:21 PM MDT, Graham Ensor via
> Meteorite-list <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com> wrote:
>
> just an addition...an example.
> Would people buy one of these Allende meteorites or similar from other
> dealers pages which I think we are all pretty confident are Allende's...but
> I'm pretty sure these were just fond in the same strewnfield and have not
> been analysed to make sure.
> https://impactika.com/product/allende-carbonaceous/
> Graham
>
> On Tue, Jul 23, 2024 at 4:46?PM Rhett Bourland <rhett.bourland at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> Honestly, just because a meteorite is found in a known strewn field
> doesn't automatically make it part of the same fall.? Twink Monrad found
> Golden Rule and Golden Mile in the Gold Basin strewn field.? Calcalong
> Creek was originally sold as part of the Camel Donga strew field.? NWA482
> was originally thought to be a eucrite.? The folks who go to Antarctica
> each year go back to the same areas to find more because of the way
> glaciers move.
> When talking about how not getting everything classified is bad for
> science, that isn't just about common material being sold as something much
> rarer.? The real danger is rare and scientifically important pieces being
> sold as something more common.
> On Tue, Jul 23, 2024, 10:22?AM Graham Ensor <graham.ensor at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> I see no problem in anybody saying a probable meteorite is unclassified
> but is likely to be a certain type. It is no different on line or throught
> the met list than traveling through Morocco or visiting a show, looking at
> hundreds of unclassified probable meteorites, and discussing the likelyhood
> of that or what type they may be with the seller. That's the way many
> dealers work to find unusual types that then get taken further to be
> officially classified. I see no fault with a NWA seller working in this
> way. The The fault comes if buyer does not then get it analysed or
> classified and tries to sell it on as an authentic classified meteorite.
> There are also thousands of meteorites amongst the hundreds of collections
> that came through NWA dealers from established large strewnfields which sit
> there as examples of a variety of falls/finds and have never been cut and
> classified. Just found as part of a new fall/find as it's impossible for
> every piece to be classified....examples are Chelya
> binsk, Ribbeck, Erg Chech 002, Tissint, Holbrook,...the list is endless. I
> suspect very few collections consist of specimens where each individual has
> been classified and most have individuals of those I've mentioned (or
> others) that have never seen a scientist. If you are new to meteorites or
> have very little experience then this is probably not the avenue for you to
> buy for a collection unless you are happy to go to the trouble of getting
> analysis done.
> G
>
> On Tue, Jul 23, 2024 at 2:32?PM Rhett Bourland via Meteorite-list <
> meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com> wrote:
>
> Educated guesses aren't classifications.? Nobody can do that.? I've got
> close to a couple hundred pieces in my collection that I've built up over
> the past 25 years.? I own classes of meteorites that most museums don't
> even have because the museums that I got them from told me where the other
> pieces were.? I can safely say that I have handled and seen even more in
> that time.? The IMCA got started in my living room. I wouldn't even call
> something a meteorite unless it got tested.? As Anne Black recently said,
> people guessing what they have and presenting it as such is nothing but
> harmful for the science and commercial trade of these rocks and that woman
> has seen and handled stuff that I can only dream of.
> On Mon, Jul 22, 2024, 3:37?PM <mendy.ouzillou at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> Rhett,
>
> ?
>
> Our North African meteorite family has earned the right to make educated
> guesses, especially after they have proven themselves to be reputable
> dealers AND have examined the specimen. They have handled far more
> meteorites than most dealers and collectors. There is no surprise that
> they, and Mohamed in particular, can tell the difference between a CO and
> another type of meteorite. Mohamed was fully transparent and clearly stated
> that it is unclassified. There is nothing inauthentic about the posting.
>
> ?
>
> I have no ulterior motive in responding to this post other than desiring
> respectful discourse.
>
> ?
>
> Sincerely,
>
> ?
>
> Mendy
>
> ?
>
> From: Meteorite-list <meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com> On
> Behalf Of Rhett Bourland via Meteorite-list
> Sent: Saturday, July 20, 2024 9:53 AM
> To: Benzaki Mohamed <kemkemexpedition at gmail.com>
> Cc: Meteorite List <Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite unclassified
>
> ?
>
> It's unclassified and yet you're calling it a CO?? That doesn't sound very
> authentic to me.
>
> ?
>
> On Sat, Jul 20, 2024, 10:17?AM Benzaki Mohamed via Meteorite-list <
> meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com> wrote:
>
>
> Hi all members hop have a good day.
>
> ?Everyone interested will be interested by a largeste co carbonaceous
> unclassified please contacte? me.all beste.?
>
> ______________________________________________
> Meteorite-list mailing list
> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com
> https://pairlist2.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
>
>
> ______________________________________________
> Meteorite-list mailing list
> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com
> https://pairlist2.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
>
>
>
> ______________________________________________
> Meteorite-list mailing list
> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com
> https://pairlist2.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
>
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2024 08:16:04 +0100
> From: Graham Ensor <graham.ensor at gmail.com>
> To: Anne Black <impactika at aol.com>
> Cc: Rhett Bourland <rhett.bourland at gmail.com>,  Meteorite List
>    <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite unclassified
> Message-ID:
>    <CAJkn+kYu6v4kw5USOxxUZSp6jK_HCwn_1ERnL+2z5anhirc7Kg at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> Yes, sorry Anne if you thought I was being critical...I'm not....that's
> what I was saying...you have individuals that can be traced back to the
> finder in that strewnfield most likely..I'm not doubting the provenances
> you have but have all those individuals have been analysed? Much the same
> as some of the very trustworthy educated and experienced Moroccan dealers
> and many other dealers and collectors selling individuals....so then buyers
> are happy to buy those individuals. Unless I am wrong and somehow all those
> individuals have each been analysed scientifically without cutting them? I
> have a wonderful David New individual Allende but I doubt it has ever been
> analysed properly to confirm that....I also have a wonderful uncut,
> individual Millbillilie from you which I'm confident is what it is without
> analysis.
>
> G
>
> Graham
>
> On Thu, Jul 25, 2024 at 2:21?AM Anne Black <impactika at aol.com> wrote:
>
> > Sorry Graham, I do have provenance for all of mine.
> >
> >
> > Anne Black
> >
> > IMPACTIKA.com
> > impactika at aol.com
> >
> >
> > On Wednesday, July 24, 2024 at 04:27:21 PM MDT, Graham Ensor via
> > Meteorite-list <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> > just an addition...an example.
> >
> > Would people buy one of these Allende meteorites or similar from other
> > dealers pages which I think we are all pretty confident are
> Allende's...but
> > I'm pretty sure these were just fond in the same strewnfield and have not
> > been analysed to make sure.
> >
> > https://impactika.com/product/allende-carbonaceous/
> >
> > Graham
> >
> > On Tue, Jul 23, 2024 at 4:46?PM Rhett Bourland <rhett.bourland at gmail.com
> >
> > wrote:
> >
> > Honestly, just because a meteorite is found in a known strewn field
> > doesn't automatically make it part of the same fall.  Twink Monrad found
> > Golden Rule and Golden Mile in the Gold Basin strewn field.  Calcalong
> > Creek was originally sold as part of the Camel Donga strew field.  NWA482
> > was originally thought to be a eucrite.  The folks who go to Antarctica
> > each year go back to the same areas to find more because of the way
> > glaciers move.
> >
> > When talking about how not getting everything classified is bad for
> > science, that isn't just about common material being sold as something
> much
> > rarer.  The real danger is rare and scientifically important pieces being
> > sold as something more common.
> >
> > On Tue, Jul 23, 2024, 10:22?AM Graham Ensor <graham.ensor at gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > I see no problem in anybody saying a probable meteorite is unclassified
> > but is likely to be a certain type. It is no different on line or
> throught
> > the met list than traveling through Morocco or visiting a show, looking
> at
> > hundreds of unclassified probable meteorites, and discussing the
> likelyhood
> > of that or what type they may be with the seller. That's the way many
> > dealers work to find unusual types that then get taken further to be
> > officially classified. I see no fault with a NWA seller working in this
> > way. The The fault comes if buyer does not then get it analysed or
> > classified and tries to sell it on as an authentic classified meteorite.
> > There are also thousands of meteorites amongst the hundreds of
> collections
> > that came through NWA dealers from established large strewnfields which
> sit
> > there as examples of a variety of falls/finds and have never been cut and
> > classified. Just found as part of a new fall/find as it's impossible for
> > every piece to be classified....examples are Chelyabinsk, Ribbeck, Erg
> > Chech 002, Tissint, Holbrook,...the list is endless. I suspect very few
> > collections consist of specimens where each individual has been
> classified
> > and most have individuals of those I've mentioned (or others) that have
> > never seen a scientist. If you are new to meteorites or have very little
> > experience then this is probably not the avenue for you to buy for a
> > collection unless you are happy to go to the trouble of getting analysis
> > done.
> >
> > G
> >
> > On Tue, Jul 23, 2024 at 2:32?PM Rhett Bourland via Meteorite-list <
> > meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com> wrote:
> >
> > Educated guesses aren't classifications.  Nobody can do that.  I've got
> > close to a couple hundred pieces in my collection that I've built up over
> > the past 25 years.  I own classes of meteorites that most museums don't
> > even have because the museums that I got them from told me where the
> other
> > pieces were.  I can safely say that I have handled and seen even more in
> > that time.  The IMCA got started in my living room. I wouldn't even call
> > something a meteorite unless it got tested.  As Anne Black recently said,
> > people guessing what they have and presenting it as such is nothing but
> > harmful for the science and commercial trade of these rocks and that
> woman
> > has seen and handled stuff that I can only dream of.
> >
> > On Mon, Jul 22, 2024, 3:37?PM <mendy.ouzillou at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > Rhett,
> >
> >
> >
> > Our North African meteorite family has earned the right to make educated
> > guesses, especially after they have proven themselves to be reputable
> > dealers AND have examined the specimen. They have handled far more
> > meteorites than most dealers and collectors. There is no surprise that
> > they, and Mohamed in particular, can tell the difference between a CO and
> > another type of meteorite. Mohamed was fully transparent and clearly
> stated
> > that it is unclassified. There is nothing inauthentic about the posting.
> >
> >
> >
> > I have no ulterior motive in responding to this post other than desiring
> > respectful discourse.
> >
> >
> >
> > Sincerely,
> >
> >
> >
> > Mendy
> >
> >
> >
> > *From:* Meteorite-list <meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com> *On
> > Behalf Of *Rhett Bourland via Meteorite-list
> > *Sent:* Saturday, July 20, 2024 9:53 AM
> > *To:* Benzaki Mohamed <kemkemexpedition at gmail.com>
> > *Cc:* Meteorite List <Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
> > *Subject:* Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite unclassified
> >
> >
> >
> > It's unclassified and yet you're calling it a CO?  That doesn't sound
> very
> > authentic to me.
> >
> >
> >
> > On Sat, Jul 20, 2024, 10:17?AM Benzaki Mohamed via Meteorite-list <
> > meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com> wrote:
> >
> > Hi all members hop have a good day.
> >
> > Everyone interested will be interested by a largeste co carbonaceous
> > unclassified please contacte  me.all beste.
> >
> > ______________________________________________
> > Meteorite-list mailing list
> > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com
> > https://pairlist2.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
> >
> > ______________________________________________
> > Meteorite-list mailing list
> > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com
> > https://pairlist2.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
> >
> > ______________________________________________
> > Meteorite-list mailing list
> > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com
> > https://pairlist2.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2024 00:35:55 -0700
> From: <paul at tucsonmeteorites.com>
> To: <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
> Subject: [meteorite-list] Meteorite Picture of the Day
> Message-ID: <3646C7946BA841C096EA7E2BD11044F2 at secureserver.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Thursday, Jul 25 2024 Meteorite Picture of the Day: Orange River
>
> Contributed by: jnmczurich
>
> http://www.tucsonmeteorites.com/mpodmain.asp?DD=07/25/2024
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2024 16:49:18 +0000 (UTC)
> From: Anne Black <impactika at aol.com>
> To: Graham Ensor <graham.ensor at gmail.com>
> Cc: Rhett Bourland <rhett.bourland at gmail.com>,  Meteorite List
>    <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite unclassified
> Message-ID: <1812802914.1566899.1721926158892 at mail.yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> Thank you Graham.As we both know it is extremely difficult to be
> absolutely sure of what we have and our sources no matter how hard we try,
> and I do wish that all meteorites were handled the way Almahata Sitta
> (thank you Siegfried Haberer and Addi Bishop) and Twannberg (Thank you Marc
> Jost and Beda Hoffman) are, verified and numbered. Time consuming but
> certainly worth it.?
> Also:Most of those new meteorites transit through Morocco. Hasna
> Chennaoui-Aoudjehane, who is certainly an expert, is right there at the
> University Hassan II in Casablanca, why isn't she asked to help and check
> those meteorites???
> Anne BlackIMPACTIKA.comimpactika at aol.com
>
>
>    On Thursday, July 25, 2024 at 01:16:17 AM MDT, Graham Ensor <
> graham.ensor at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Yes, sorry Anne if you thought I was being critical...I'm not....that's
> what I was saying...you have individuals that can be traced back to the
> finder in that strewnfield most likely..I'm not doubting the provenances
> you have but have all those individuals have been analysed? Much the same
> as some of the very trustworthy educated and experienced Moroccan dealers
> and many other dealers and collectors selling individuals....so then buyers
> are happy to buy those individuals. Unless I am wrong and somehow all those
> individuals have each been analysed scientifically without cutting them? I
> have a wonderful David New individual Allende but I doubt it has ever been
> analysed properly to confirm that....I also have a wonderful uncut,
> individual Millbillilie from you which I'm confident is what it is without
> analysis.
> G
>
> Graham
>
> On Thu, Jul 25, 2024 at 2:21?AM Anne Black <impactika at aol.com> wrote:
>
> Sorry Graham, I do have provenance for all of mine.
>
> Anne Black
> IMPACTIKA.comimpactika at aol.com
>
>
>    On Wednesday, July 24, 2024 at 04:27:21 PM MDT, Graham Ensor via
> Meteorite-list <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com> wrote:
>
> just an addition...an example.
> Would people buy one of these Allende meteorites or similar from other
> dealers pages which I think we are all pretty confident are Allende's...but
> I'm pretty sure these were just fond in the same strewnfield and have not
> been analysed to make sure.
> https://impactika.com/product/allende-carbonaceous/
> Graham
>
> On Tue, Jul 23, 2024 at 4:46?PM Rhett Bourland <rhett.bourland at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> Honestly, just because a meteorite is found in a known strewn field
> doesn't automatically make it part of the same fall.? Twink Monrad found
> Golden Rule and Golden Mile in the Gold Basin strewn field.? Calcalong
> Creek was originally sold as part of the Camel Donga strew field.? NWA482
> was originally thought to be a eucrite.? The folks who go to Antarctica
> each year go back to the same areas to find more because of the way
> glaciers move.
> When talking about how not getting everything classified is bad for
> science, that isn't just about common material being sold as something much
> rarer.? The real danger is rare and scientifically important pieces being
> sold as something more common.
> On Tue, Jul 23, 2024, 10:22?AM Graham Ensor <graham.ensor at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> I see no problem in anybody saying a probable meteorite is unclassified
> but is likely to be a certain type. It is no different on line or throught
> the met list than traveling through Morocco or visiting a show, looking at
> hundreds of unclassified probable meteorites, and discussing the likelyhood
> of that or what type they may be with the seller. That's the way many
> dealers work to find unusual types that then get taken further to be
> officially classified. I see no fault with a NWA seller working in this
> way. The The fault comes if buyer does not then get it analysed or
> classified and tries to sell it on as an authentic classified meteorite.
> There are also thousands of meteorites amongst the hundreds of collections
> that came through NWA dealers from established large strewnfields which sit
> there as examples of a variety of falls/finds and have never been cut and
> classified. Just found as part of a new fall/find as it's impossible for
> every piece to be classified....examples are Chelya
> binsk, Ribbeck, Erg Chech 002, Tissint, Holbrook,...the list is endless. I
> suspect very few collections consist of specimens where each individual has
> been classified and most have individuals of those I've mentioned (or
> others) that have never seen a scientist. If you are new to meteorites or
> have very little experience then this is probably not the avenue for you to
> buy for a collection unless you are happy to go to the trouble of getting
> analysis done.
> G
>
> On Tue, Jul 23, 2024 at 2:32?PM Rhett Bourland via Meteorite-list <
> meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com> wrote:
>
> Educated guesses aren't classifications.? Nobody can do that.? I've got
> close to a couple hundred pieces in my collection that I've built up over
> the past 25 years.? I own classes of meteorites that most museums don't
> even have because the museums that I got them from told me where the other
> pieces were.? I can safely say that I have handled and seen even more in
> that time.? The IMCA got started in my living room. I wouldn't even call
> something a meteorite unless it got tested.? As Anne Black recently said,
> people guessing what they have and presenting it as such is nothing but
> harmful for the science and commercial trade of these rocks and that woman
> has seen and handled stuff that I can only dream of.
> On Mon, Jul 22, 2024, 3:37?PM <mendy.ouzillou at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> Rhett,
>
> ?
>
> Our North African meteorite family has earned the right to make educated
> guesses, especially after they have proven themselves to be reputable
> dealers AND have examined the specimen. They have handled far more
> meteorites than most dealers and collectors. There is no surprise that
> they, and Mohamed in particular, can tell the difference between a CO and
> another type of meteorite. Mohamed was fully transparent and clearly stated
> that it is unclassified. There is nothing inauthentic about the posting.
>
> ?
>
> I have no ulterior motive in responding to this post other than desiring
> respectful discourse.
>
> ?
>
> Sincerely,
>
> ?
>
> Mendy
>
> ?
>
> From: Meteorite-list <meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com> On
> Behalf Of Rhett Bourland via Meteorite-list
> Sent: Saturday, July 20, 2024 9:53 AM
> To: Benzaki Mohamed <kemkemexpedition at gmail.com>
> Cc: Meteorite List <Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite unclassified
>
> ?
>
> It's unclassified and yet you're calling it a CO?? That doesn't sound very
> authentic to me.
>
> ?
>
> On Sat, Jul 20, 2024, 10:17?AM Benzaki Mohamed via Meteorite-list <
> meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com> wrote:
>
>
> Hi all members hop have a good day.
>
> ?Everyone interested will be interested by a largeste co carbonaceous
> unclassified please contacte? me.all beste.?
>
> ______________________________________________
> Meteorite-list mailing list
> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com
> https://pairlist2.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
>
>
> ______________________________________________
> Meteorite-list mailing list
> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com
> https://pairlist2.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
>
>
>
> ______________________________________________
> Meteorite-list mailing list
> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com
> https://pairlist2.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
>
>
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