[meteorite-list] Case study: Lake Eyre meteorite vs. U.S.

Raremeteorites raremeteorites at centurylink.net
Wed Jan 20 15:29:57 EST 2016 

Don't shoot the messenger.  I am opposed to this overregulation myself.  I 
am not a lawyer so you will have to obtain specific information directly 
from the source.  In this case, the U.S. Department of the Interior.  I am 
just trying to prevent field collectors from running into trouble instead of 
sticking my head in sand and ignoring that these rules/regulations/laws 
exist.


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Michael Mulgrew" <mikestang at gmail.com>
To: "Raremeteorites" <raremeteorites at centurylink.net>
Cc: "Meteorite List" <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 20, 2016 12:11 PM
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Case study: Lake Eyre meteorite vs. U.S.


> Then cite me title and section of the CFR that deals with meteorites.
>
> Michael in so. Cal.
>
> On Wed, Jan 20, 2016 at 12:11 PM, Raremeteorites via Meteorite-list
> <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com> wrote:
>> Federal rules and regulations are laws.
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Mulgrew" 
>> <mikestang at gmail.com>
>> To: "Raremeteorites" <raremeteorites at centurylink.net>
>> Cc: "Meteorite List" <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
>> Sent: Wednesday, January 20, 2016 12:04 PM
>> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Case study: Lake Eyre meteorite vs. U.S.
>>
>>
>>> Not a law.  Thank you.
>>>
>>> -Michael in so. Cal.
>>>
>>> On Wed, Jan 20, 2016 at 12:06 PM, Raremeteorites via Meteorite-list
>>> <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Exact wording from BLM website:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Those interested should contact the appropriate BLM office to learn
>>>> details
>>>> for their area of interest.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Can meteorites casually collected from public lands be bartered or 
>>>> sold?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Casual collection of meteorites from public lands is only for an
>>>> individual's personal use. Sale or barter is considered commercial use. 
>>>> A
>>>> permit must be issued for commercial activities and fees will be
>>>> collected,
>>>> including a purchase price based on a unit price or the percentage of
>>>> fair
>>>> market value, and a reclamation fee, if required.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Mulgrew"
>>>> <mikestang at gmail.com>
>>>> To: "Raremeteorites" <raremeteorites at centurylink.net>
>>>> Cc: "Meteorite List" <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, January 20, 2016 11:45 AM
>>>> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Case study: Lake Eyre meteorite vs. U.S.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Adam,
>>>>>
>>>>> Please cite me (and the rest of the list) the law by order and
>>>>> section.  "I saw it in a book" doesn't mean jack or shit to me.
>>>>>
>>>>> -Michael in so. Cal.
>>>>>
>>>>> On Wed, Jan 20, 2016 at 10:26 AM, Raremeteorites via Meteorite-list
>>>>> <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> A federal law is on the books about meteorites found on public land 
>>>>>> are
>>>>>> not
>>>>>> to used for commercial purposes.  A BLM agent working the Pahrump,
>>>>>> Nevada
>>>>>> area showed us this law in a book he pulled from his truck in the 
>>>>>> field
>>>>>> after Guido Diero asked to see the laws governing meteorites.  This 
>>>>>> is
>>>>>> after
>>>>>> the agent questioned our team members individually to try and catch 
>>>>>> us
>>>>>> with
>>>>>> leading questions like "how much are they worth?, how many have you
>>>>>> sold?"
>>>>>> and so on.  Our team individually answered appropriately that they 
>>>>>> have
>>>>>> no
>>>>>> commercial value whatsoever since they cannot be sold and that the 
>>>>>> real
>>>>>> value is scientific.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Future generations may remember our generation as the one that 
>>>>>> screwed
>>>>>> everything up by publicly placing a monetary value on meteorites and
>>>>>> attracting the attention of unelected federal and state lawmakers. 
>>>>>> The
>>>>>> Great Late Richard Norton warned this would happen decades ago.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Adam
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Mulgrew"
>>>>>> <mikestang at gmail.com>
>>>>>> To: "Raremeteorites" <raremeteorites at centurylink.net>
>>>>>> Cc: "Meteorite List" <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, January 20, 2016 9:55 AM
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Case study: Lake Eyre meteorite vs. 
>>>>>> U.S.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Except that there are no laws concerning meteorites and the infamous
>>>>>> "BLM order" expired Sep. 30, 2013.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Like Larry wrote previously, the permit and the process was a joke - 
>>>>>> a
>>>>>> series of hoops to be jumped through and when I got to the last hoop
>>>>>> they kept moving it further away.  I don't think they expected anyone
>>>>>> to even make it as far as I did.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> We don't need to worry about the first American Lunar, it will 100% 
>>>>>> be
>>>>>> found on private property.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -Michael in so. Cal.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Tue, Jan 19, 2016 at 10:38 AM, Raremeteorites via Meteorite-list
>>>>>> <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I agree with what you said about the laws not being enforced but 
>>>>>>> they
>>>>>>> are
>>>>>>> still on the books and most likely will never come off.  I have not
>>>>>>> been
>>>>>>> hassled recently and the last time was in the same period as 
>>>>>>> Met-Men.
>>>>>>> Apparently the BLM thought meteorites were lying around like Easter
>>>>>>> eggs
>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>> people were becoming rich from them so they needed more laws to
>>>>>>> protect
>>>>>>> people from making any form of profit.  There is also no statue of
>>>>>>> limitations on federal laws so when somebody finds that North 
>>>>>>> American
>>>>>>> Lunar, they can go back in time to bolster their case.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Larry Atkins" 
>>>>>>> <thetoprok at aol.com>
>>>>>>> To: <raremeteorites at centurylink.net>;
>>>>>>> <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, January 18, 2016 8:22 PM
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Case study: Lake Eyre meteorite vs. 
>>>>>>> U.S.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hi Adam,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> What I said is true. Unenforced laws are meaningless. A warning or
>>>>>>> whatever. really doesn't add up to anything of substance, and 
>>>>>>> without
>>>>>>> actual
>>>>>>> charges or at least a ticket, it's just words.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I'm guessing, only guessing, the incidents you mentioned happened
>>>>>>> during,
>>>>>>> or just after the peak of the" Met Men" series, when the BLM was on 
>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>> mission to keep us from making all that 'easy money'. I'd bet those
>>>>>>> same
>>>>>>> officers watching eBay have tired of the activity and moved on to
>>>>>>> bigger
>>>>>>> fish long ago. Not much to get uptight about on eBay regarding
>>>>>>> American
>>>>>>> meteorites "poached" from state or federal land. It wouldn't take 
>>>>>>> long
>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>> them to figure out that monitoring eBay is a nonstarter, not enough
>>>>>>> money to
>>>>>>> merit the effort. The crater is the exception but that's a whole 
>>>>>>> other
>>>>>>> topic.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I spend a lot of time in the field, thousands of hours, and I have
>>>>>>> hard
>>>>>>> core meteorite hunting buddies pounding the ground for thousands of
>>>>>>> hours
>>>>>>> per year without incident. Every single officer I've come into 
>>>>>>> contact
>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>> was aware of what I was doing and never once have I had an issue. 
>>>>>>> Some
>>>>>>> day
>>>>>>> if we ever  get together we can share some stories.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> As far as artifacts and fossils go you are correct, but only to a
>>>>>>> point.
>>>>>>> You can surface collect in most areas as far as I know. I can pick 
>>>>>>> up
>>>>>>> fossils all day long, no one cares until I find 'Sue'. The same will
>>>>>>> hold
>>>>>>> true for meteorites, no one is gonna care until I recover the first
>>>>>>> North
>>>>>>> American Lunar.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The heat has cooled off. Relax,, Smile and go find some rocks bro. 
>>>>>>> : )
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Sincerely,
>>>>>>> Larry Atkins
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> IMCA # 1941
>>>>>>> Ebay alienrockfarm
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>> From: Raremeteorites via Meteorite-list
>>>>>>> <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
>>>>>>> To: meteorite-list <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
>>>>>>> Sent: Mon, Jan 18, 2016 7:02 pm
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Case study: Lake Eyre meteorite vs. 
>>>>>>> U.S.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I wish what you said was true.  Our entire group was hassled around
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> Pahrump area in Nevada and twice in California.  Eight of our team
>>>>>>> members
>>>>>>> were threatened (warned) and I know others on the List who have been
>>>>>>> hassled
>>>>>>> as well.  Two agents based out Barstow went as far as saying they 
>>>>>>> know
>>>>>>> what
>>>>>>> is being sold on eBay.  We were told that some public land is
>>>>>>> designated
>>>>>>> as
>>>>>>> heritage or areas of areas of critical concern which are completely
>>>>>>> off
>>>>>>> limits while metal detectors cannot be used in other areas.  I 
>>>>>>> cannot
>>>>>>> find
>>>>>>> any source which lists these areas so an agent can determine this in
>>>>>>> field
>>>>>>> so be careful.  Just ask artifact and fossils hunters what happened
>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>> their once-fine avocation including the fellow who found "Sue" the
>>>>>>> dinosaur.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Larry Atkins" 
>>>>>>> <thetoprok at aol.com>
>>>>>>> To: <raremeteorites at centurylink.net>;
>>>>>>> <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, January 18, 2016 4:38 PM
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Case study: Lake Eyre meteorite vs. 
>>>>>>> U.S.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hi Adam, All,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> This may be true but it is very rarely if ever enforced, rendering 
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> laws
>>>>>>> meaningless. BLM got all excited a couple years ago but it came to
>>>>>>> nothing,
>>>>>>> ask Michael Mulgrew how his application went. It's a joke. The 
>>>>>>> people
>>>>>>> enforcing the laws of our wild lands have better things to do than
>>>>>>> hassle
>>>>>>> rock hounds. In my sixteen years of hunting and occasional selling
>>>>>>> I've
>>>>>>> never heard of, or experienced trouble. In fact, I've encountered 
>>>>>>> law
>>>>>>> enforcement of all types while in the field, told them exactly what 
>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>> was
>>>>>>> doing, talked money and everything, and all they say is "Good luck!
>>>>>>> Have
>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>> great day!"
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Sell your rocks if you want, business as usual.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Sincerely,
>>>>>>> Larry Atkins
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> IMCA # 1941
>>>>>>> Ebay alienrockfarm
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>> From: Raremeteorites via Meteorite-list
>>>>>>> <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
>>>>>>> To: meteorite-list <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
>>>>>>> Sent: Mon, Jan 18, 2016 3:38 pm
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Case study: Lake Eyre meteorite vs. 
>>>>>>> U.S.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I agree with everything you stated with the exception of response 2
>>>>>>> where
>>>>>>> you state private citizens can profit from meteorite finds here in 
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> United States.  It is against federal and most state laws to use
>>>>>>> meteorites
>>>>>>> found on public land for commercial purposes meaning that the finder
>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>> allowed to sell anything they find.  Private citizen are prohibited
>>>>>>> from
>>>>>>> making a profit without a permit which will never be issued.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 2) If private citizens were prohibited from profiting from the
>>>>>>> recovery
>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>> meteorites,
>>>>>>> would you expect a negative impact on the quantity of recovered
>>>>>>> material
>>>>>>> from a
>>>>>>> new fall? I think this is undeniable, and therefore it certainly
>>>>>>> follows
>>>>>>> that the total
>>>>>>> mass deposited with accredited institutions would suffer. And it's 
>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>> just
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> quantity, it's the quality. A meteorite recovered within 24 hours of 
>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>> fall
>>>>>>> is obviously
>>>>>>> more scientifically valuable than one recovered a month later, when
>>>>>>> terrestrial
>>>>>>> weathering has altered some rare minerals, and short-lived
>>>>>>> radioisotopes
>>>>>>> have
>>>>>>> decayed below the threshold of detectability.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Matson, Rob D. via 
>>>>>>> Meteorite-list"
>>>>>>> <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
>>>>>>> To: <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, January 18, 2016 12:12 PM
>>>>>>> Subject: [meteorite-list] Case study: Lake Eyre meteorite vs. U.S.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hi Ian,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Since you brought up the Creston fall, presumably as a comparison
>>>>>>> example
>>>>>>> against
>>>>>>> current Australian state policies, I feel some counter-commentary is
>>>>>>> appropriate.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Creston is a example of where things went a bit pair shaped in my
>>>>>>>> mind
>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>> science.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In my opinion, Creston was really no stranger than Sutter's Mill,
>>>>>>> Novato,
>>>>>>> Battle Mountain,
>>>>>>> Mifflin or Ash Creek. Science has been well served by all of these
>>>>>>> falls.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> USA had a private network of cameras setup that captured the
>>>>>>>> fireball,
>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>> private individual
>>>>>>>> and some others extracted that meteorite, the first piece(s) was 
>>>>>>>> then
>>>>>>>> on
>>>>>>>> sold. Finally it
>>>>>>>> was sold for a ridiculous price. Not illegal or immoral......just 
>>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>>> ideal
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I think what you are getting at is that only a small fraction of 
>>>>>>> each
>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>> these falls made
>>>>>>> it into the hands of researchers. There are a couple points to
>>>>>>> consider:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> (1) How much material do researchers really need to extract the
>>>>>>> majority
>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>> pertinent
>>>>>>> scientific data from a fall? Sure, if you had infinite time you'd 
>>>>>>> love
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>> have all of it since
>>>>>>> the individual meteorites from a fall are not necessarily 
>>>>>>> homogenous.
>>>>>>> (Case
>>>>>>> in point:
>>>>>>> Almahata Sitta). But balanced against this is the question of how 
>>>>>>> much
>>>>>>> more
>>>>>>> you're
>>>>>>> going to learn by analyzing all of the stones from an L6 fall.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> (2) If private citizens were prohibited from profiting from the
>>>>>>> recovery
>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>> meteorites,
>>>>>>> would you expect a negative impact on the quantity of recovered
>>>>>>> material
>>>>>>> from a
>>>>>>> new fall? I think this is undeniable, and therefore it certainly
>>>>>>> follows
>>>>>>> that the total
>>>>>>> mass deposited with accredited institutions would suffer. And it's 
>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>> just
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> quantity, it's the quality. A meteorite recovered within 24 hours of 
>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>> fall
>>>>>>> is obviously
>>>>>>> more scientifically valuable than one recovered a month later, when
>>>>>>> terrestrial
>>>>>>> weathering has altered some rare minerals, and short-lived
>>>>>>> radioisotopes
>>>>>>> have
>>>>>>> decayed below the threshold of detectability.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> (3) Successful meteorite recovery requires a significant skill set 
>>>>>>> AND
>>>>>>> considerable
>>>>>>> expenditures of time and money. In the U.S., I expect that more than
>>>>>>> 95%
>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> annual resources made available through government grants to recover
>>>>>>> meteorites
>>>>>>> goes to ANSMET. I've spent thousands of unpaid hours on the analysis
>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>> nearly
>>>>>>> all U.S. falls that have occurred in the last 15 years, as well as a
>>>>>>> number
>>>>>>> of falls
>>>>>>> outside America, and have devoted a not insignificant amount of time
>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>> money
>>>>>>> traveling to many of these places to recover meteorites. On each of
>>>>>>> these
>>>>>>> expeditions I tend to encounter the same couple dozen of dedicated
>>>>>>> individuals --
>>>>>>> names that would all be familiar to anyone on the Meteorite List. On
>>>>>>> occasion I have
>>>>>>> seen other scientists "in the field," but I suspect in most cases it
>>>>>>> was
>>>>>>> on
>>>>>>> their
>>>>>>> own dime and not in an official paid capacity. Meteoriticists are 
>>>>>>> paid
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>> analyze
>>>>>>> meteorites, not run around the country recovering them.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Now in Australia, we do have an likely issue of finds being hidden 
>>>>>>>> (
>>>>>>>> old
>>>>>>>> falls and
>>>>>>>> cold finds) due to our state laws. However this material will just
>>>>>>>> add
>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>> the 50,000
>>>>>>>> stones we need to know more about. Where these laws are a benefit 
>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>> when
>>>>>>>> our DFN etc detects a fall, scientists (not private hunters looking
>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>> profit or cost
>>>>>>>> recovery) will go out grab the stone and bring it back!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Perhaps in Australia this happens. I have not seen evidence that 
>>>>>>> this
>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> case
>>>>>>> in the U.S.  Researchers have access to the same information that I
>>>>>>> do:
>>>>>>> Doppler
>>>>>>> radar, seismic networks, all-sky cameras, internet posts, the AMS
>>>>>>> website
>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>> a dozen other resources. Nothing other than time and funding is
>>>>>>> stopping
>>>>>>> them
>>>>>>> from competing with private citizens.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> We will know where it came from, where it landed, who found it, 
>>>>>>>> what
>>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>> where it will stay exactly. With much more than just a 
>>>>>>>> classification
>>>>>>>> but,
>>>>>>>> rare orbit
>>>>>>>> data - which is contributing greatly to mapping our solar system 
>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>> more!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Well, we got all of that on both Sutter's Mill and Creston, in spite
>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> problems
>>>>>>> of private land ownership and considerably harder searching 
>>>>>>> conditions
>>>>>>> than
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> almost ideal surfaces of the Australian outback. So both systems can
>>>>>>> work.
>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>> just
>>>>>>> think the current U.S. laws favor a higher success rate than in
>>>>>>> Australia
>>>>>>> because
>>>>>>> they (at least currently) provide enough incentive to boost the
>>>>>>> people-hours
>>>>>>> that get devoted to each fall.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Best wishes,
>>>>>>> Rob
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ______________________________________________
>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ______________________________________________
>>>>>>
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>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
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>>>>
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>>
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