[meteorite-list] Subject: Re: Lake Eyre meteorite 'Crown property', and Shawns missunderstanding!

[Galactic Stone & Ironworks]

Hi Graham and Innocent Bystanders,

I am not "Shawn", but it appears you are replying to things I said, so
I will respond.  My name is Michael by the way.  :)

All I heard Ian say was that these Guy’s are doing a great service to
> meteorite studies in Australia and are achieving excellent results!
> You haven't listened to what Ian explained in his letter that here in
> Australia each State and Territory have different laws concerning meteorite
> ownership and it gets very complicated at times!

I read it. I am as familiar as a non-resident can be about Australia's
legal situation in regards to meteorites.  There was nothing new in
the original post about the legalities of Australian meteorites. I
know that different states and territories have different laws in
regards to them. The US states also have differing and sometimes
contradictory laws, but meteorites are scarcely (if at all) mention in
US state law. The regulations Adam and others have mentioned are
Federal here.

> The new Digital Desert Fireball Network  have contributed so much to the
> study of meteorites, What is wrong with what they are doing and why do you
> have a problem with this?

I don't have a problem with this, I think it's great. I wish them
continued and greater success. I both envy and appreciate what they
and others do.

"All I heard Ian say was that"

That wasn't all Ian said, he capped off his post with a broad
judgement of how much fraud is in the meteorite world and tossed in
"tiny fragments" for good measure - a backhand comment at best to
micromount and crumb collectors. As someone who collects small
specimens (amongst others), the insinuation that specimen size somehow
equates to fraud is offensive to me as a collector and a trader of
such specimens. The statement implies that small ("tiny") specimens
cannot be trusted because they cannot be visually paired - which is
something one is not supposed to do anyway. I assume what this is
meant, since a microprobe or XRF only requires a tiny crumb to provide
data.

 Where have you been hiding Shawn?
> Have you had your head stuck in the ground?
> Ian was standing up for the scientists and Governments and stating the
> truth.

I have Shawn locked up in a steel drum with air holes punched in it.
It sits in my basement and I taunt him regularly with a pointed stick.
;)

I have been hiding on the Met List, Facebook, Twitter, Instagram,
Pinterest, email, news feeds, etc. I read the same journals and
websites that most other List members do. I see obvious fakes and
frauds on eBay all the time - only a halfwit would bite on some of
those deals. Thousands of dollars for a bubbly slag from a seller in
Romania with zero feedback, no thanks. Or, the same thing from a new
seller in Turkey claiming it is Bingol. No thanks.

I don't see the fraud and scammer problem because I do not deal with
or associate with such things. I was not the one who threw that issue
out on the table in a discussion about meteorite recovery and
government regulations. I don't see scammers on the List because Art
and the community do a great job of exposing and banning those people,
so I don't see them here. We get a few kooks, but real thieves are
rare.

Facebook is a mess like eBay. Good deals from reputable sellers, and
bad deals from scammers. Most informed buyers can tell the difference
pretty quick. Google has a long memory that is available to anyone and
most online bad dealings leave a digital record.

> "Ian was standing up for the scientists and Governments and stating the
> truth.

Yes, and I agree with the truth regardless of what channel it's being
broadcast on. I disagree with the notion (or implication) that the US
or global meteorite collector market would be better served by
stricter laws or more regulation. People who support increased
regulation usually inflate perceived threats to help validate the
necessity for those regulations. Ian sees fraud everywhere. I see a
bunch of fools trying to rip off other fools and none of them are
doing a very good job of it apparently. The one case of meteorite
fraud ever to go before a judge resulted in the guilty party being
sanctioned and relief given to the claimants. Somebody tried to pass
something off for something else, sold it, and then was caught,
brought to court, fined, sanctioned, and ultimately jailed for
violating the terms. Seems like the system worked fine with the laws
already in place that were enforced. What I am getting at is, I do not
see any more fraud in the meteorite collector market than I do for any
other collectible that has monetary value. Look at the gemstone market
- there is far far more fraud in the gemstone market than in the
meteorite market. The black market for gemstones makes the so-called
"meteorite black market" look like nickels and dimes.

> You know exactly who the people who steal meteorites from other countries
> are and some have been jailed for it and some not!
> Australian meteorites were plundered in the past and then claimed to be
> NWA’s Look it up before you comment.
> The Nova is just one example !

Yes, we all know the same stories about the same handful of people. We
are literally talking about a handful of people you could comfortably
fit around your dining room table. There is no vast guild of
international meteorite poachers defying authorities and smuggling
vast fortunes of forbidden space rocks into the cabinets of wealthy
organized crime figures. (Or, so the New York Times might have you
think otherwise.) The narrative that a material/commodity/resource is
somehow inherently dangerous or prone to abuse is the first brick on
the road to increased taxation and regulation. The "government" cannot
guarantee the provenance of a meteorite, nor can a government
authoritatively decide what a meteorite is. Only a microprobe and a
grad student can tell if a rock is a meteorite to begin with.

I think we are not in any fundamental disagreement about the important
issues of scientific research, discovery, and advancement of the body
of knowledge in the planetary sciences. Perhaps we have crossed some
wires of communication or semantics about some of the associated
issues of meteorite science - like commercialism, government
regulation, and academic elitism. And all of those issues are
intertwined with politics and bureaucracy to some degree. My position
is, the less of those last two things, the better. (unless a clear and
tangible need is evident).

Best regards and Happy Huntings,

MikeG


On 1/16/16, Graham <grahamac at tpg.com.au> wrote:
> Shawn you really need to listen to what is being said in this forum.
> ,
> All I heard Ian say was that these Guy’s are doing a great service to
> meteorite studies in Australia and are achieving excellent results!
> You haven't listened to what Ian explained in his letter that here in
> Australia each State and Territory have different laws concerning meteorite
> ownership and it gets very complicated at times!
>
> The new Digital Desert Fireball Network  have contributed so much to the
> study of meteorites, What is wrong with what they are doing and why do you
> have a problem with this?
> Most meteorites they have found have already gone to the appropriate
> museum’s with their blessing and the others will shortly go there After all
> this is what they are all about!
>
> If you look at Australia you will see a huge country with massive spaces in
> between so it takes longer to get around,
> If you want to compare Australia and America they are around the same size
> but we only have 25 million people as the larger part is the centre and that
> is all desert!
> ( thus ends the history Lesson)
>
> Ian eloquently spoke of important issues. and also mentioned:
> (I constantly see deception, fraud, ridiculous pricing,
> Items stolen out of countries,
> Governments and scientists disrespected,
> Incorrectly described  items, dubious provenance,
> destroyed samples, tiny fragments, endless
> provenance hand balling etc etc)
>
> You commented that:
> (I do not see the kind of rampant fraud and chicanery that Ian is
> talking about. )
>
> Where have you been hiding Shawn?
> Have you had your head stuck in the ground?
> Ian was standing up for the scientists and Governments and stating the
> truth.
>
> You know exactly who the people who steal meteorites from other countries
> are and some have been jailed for it and some not!
> Australian meteorites were plundered in the past and then claimed to be
> NWA’s Look it up before you comment.
> The Nova is just one example !
>
> I am not going to write a long boring letter, I will let the facts speak for
> themselves and we all need to obey the Law of each country we live in or
> visit.
>
> Cheers all
> and well said Ian
>
>


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