[meteorite-list] R: iron meteorite natural color
Tim Heitz
midwestmeteor at earthlink.net
Fri Dec 2 15:34:25 EST 2016
Years of trying to stop rusting Campo's I found something that works
well.
http://www.google.com/shopping/product/17099621752709405693?lsf=seller:8740,store:14032030979768561175&prds=oid:7775907814482941438&q=lithium+grease&hl=en&ei=jLo9WJbpG4aHmQG8ooDABA&mid=syrjdvt4k%7Cdc_mtid_8903tb925190_pcrid_50645156379_pkw__pmt__product_205115708_slid_&lsft=gclid:CJ-grsC-ztACFQ0HhgodGfAMNw
On 12/2/2016 2:46 PM, Marcin Cimała - POLANDMET via Meteorite-list wrote:
> Hello list
> I purchased and tested "european" version of Naval Jelly. Looks very
> good to me.
> https://s11.postimg.org/6r86cyl3n/OOOOOOOOOOO.jpg
>
>
> -----[ MARCIN CIMALA ]----[ +48 793567667 ]-----
> http://www.Meteoryty.pl marcin(at)meteoryty.pl
> http://www.PolandMET.com marcin(at)polandmet.com
> --------[ Member of Polish Meteoritical Society ]--------
>
>
>
>
>> Hi John,
>>
>> I understood you were interested in the gassing/vapor process of
>> bluing, which is just one way to "blue". Not sure but think this
>> will cause acid at its boiling temperature ("acid steam") or ambient
>> over hours as a vapor, to penetrate the porous iron, so you need to
>> deal with that just as the naval jelly or even more since it
>> penetrates more vs a gel that stays on the surface more. A gun
>> barrel should be finished to remove all surface imperfections and get
>> down to a smooth polished surface before such treatment, right?
>> Experts? The polished barrel surface can be easily cleaned and very
>> effectively degreased after doing that step by step purging spent
>> chemicals used in the process.
>>
>> The meteorite presents a way bigger challenge due to its porous and
>> weathered nature. If I were testing I would find a rusted gun barrel
>> or other suitable piece of metal that has a surface that was severely
>> rust damaged, give it the treatment and then see how it blues,
>> pitted, channeled and cratered out. That would be an practice step
>> before deciding to try the meteorite. The practice step would be
>> interesting not only for practice but also to get a feel for how well
>> it works as the surface to be finished gets more imperfect or
>> intermediate. For sure this effect can be done, but really is it
>> feasible or just a curiosity to play with because you think a color
>> is cool, anyway those are my thoughts.
>>
>> We all have our view on the meaning of "natural" which like Pilate
>> has an ambiguous answer. Because it means different things to
>> different people what makes me happy is to look at each locality as
>> found and clean them up preserving that aspect best. We saw that in
>> Francisco's links of some awesome specimens. Anyway we all do what
>> we want. The problem is that when we use meteorites as educational
>> tools we can do a disservice to those learning that don't have the
>> benefit of seeing what has been done to the meteorite. Soon,
>> somebody says that we all know Campos are black!
>>
>> My analogy would be that I grew up thinking that dinosaurs were gray
>> like elephants, hippos, and alligators. Now some evidence points to
>> the possibility of some having been brightly or iridescently
>> colored. Bummer I grew up with that assumption.
>>
>> Since irons are believed from shattered proto-planets and asteroids
>> capable of differentiation, I feel ok with bright fresh metal color
>> being pristine. Could be wrong but seems harmless at this point abd
>> after floating around as you say who knows the effects of space
>> weathering on a particular iron. Here is a NASA artists conception of
>> (16) Psyche, the big mother of iron space rocks.
>> http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/images/asteroid/20150930/psyche20150929.jpg
>>
>> Perhaps we will know before Christmas whether NASA decides to give
>> Arizona State's half billion dollar Psyche mission a green light and
>> we'll get to see it up close and comfortable in color in 10 years
>> from now if we last that long.
>>
>> For now I'm happy to be a minimalist, remembering the error of the
>> dinosaurs. Since irons are supposed from M-class asteroids from
>> collisions denuding the cores of differentiated bodies, I think a
>> freshly cleaned iron meteorites or a polished slice is a safe color
>> to call natural and unmodified to our collections. That is why I told
>> Francisco to learn to like the bare metal color. And for individuals
>> I prefer to be conservative and capture the color of what they look
>> like as found whenever possible, after nature has taken its course.
>> With the rusting problems on Campos I guess it isn't too important if
>> we start making them in personalized colors so everyone can have the
>> pretty meteorite in the color of their choice, just like Atlas pasta
>> machines. Candy apple red comes to mind, to go with the Mustang
>> convertible in my dreams some day! '
>> My Best
>> Doug
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: John Lutzon <jl at lutzon.com>
>> To: MexicoDoug <mexicodoug at aol.com>; Francesco Moser <cojack at tiscali.it>
>> Cc: meteorite-list <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
>> Sent: Mon, Nov 28, 2016 11:26 pm
>> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] R: iron meteorite natural color
>>
>>
>> Doug,
>>
>> I do admire you and would like to question you and the whole question
>> of "natural" patina......
>> These guys have been floating out there for Billions of years and
>> only when they arrive here
>> and burn to a crisp (which I personally love a bubbly black coating)
>> do we call it natural.
>> When these metal chunks first formed and cooled they may have shined
>> like a new coin.
>>
>> This jelly or that coating will all introduce "stuff" on and into
>> said object. I agrre with you
>> as far as cleaning and then acetone (to, again, de-grease). After
>> that, the most natural way
>> to darken and protect iron is the hundreds of years old method of
>> forming iron oxide and
>> boiling. This process leaves no chemicals on the object. The most
>> difficult part of doing
>> this process is the cleaning and de-greasing---after that just put a
>> small amount or reagent
>> in the bottom of household food container, hang the meteorite and
>> wait about 8 hours (varies),
>> take out and put in a pot of boiling water. The red/brown iron oxide
>> somehow turns black
>> and when brushed off leaves a protective dark finish. Simple. Every
>> blued gun you've ever seen
>> has had this oxidation method applied and after hundreds of years
>> some of them look pritine.
>>
>> As I do not know if this process will work on an iron such as Campo,
>> I (although in a wheelchair)
>> have decided to try this method on one of my smaller 5.45Kg
>> individuals. Although i'm more
>> than happy with its present apperance, which can be seen here, i'll
>> give it a go.
>> http://www.encyclopedia-of-meteorites.com/collection.aspx?id=2639
>> As there were no comments on my original post, i'll do it and get
>> back with the results, pics.
>>
>> All best to all, John
>>
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "MexicoDoug via Meteorite-list"
>> <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
>> To: <cojack at tiscali.it>; <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
>> Sent: Monday, November 28, 2016 9:49 PM
>> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] R: iron meteorite natural color
>>
>>
>> Hi Francisco, My opinion is no, about "naval jelly" for the reasons I
>> discussed in my last post somewhere below. But if you want
>> to do that yourself, you can make a gel out of phosphoric acid, about
>> 12-20% (w/w). Gel is made with addition of a food gum starch
>> like when you make Italian gelato. It will stain darker for reaction
>> with the acid. (instead of oxide you get phosphate). Here is
>> an example:
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_pillar_of_Delhi#/media/File:QtubIronPillar.JPG
>>
>> However leaving harsh acid is not my idea then it penetrates the
>> meteorite like Muonion.
>>
>> Regarding your question to me, I did not misunderstand, I think. You
>> simply do not want the true matte gray color of the clean
>> metal after you remove the oxidation. And you are clear now that you
>> do not want to fake a natural color, you just want to change
>> the color to look more "natural" :-). (Then everyone will see this
>> color and believe it is natural unless you tell them
>> differently.)
>>
>> This Campo is old buried microscopically fractured metal piece if you
>> read near the bottom I recommended the process, assuming
>> first you had sandblasted and treated as you indicated you would:
>>
>> "The simplest things are: degrease with acetone if you are serious,
>> then dry gentle heat a few hours followed by a good oil and you
>> will build up a light protective oxidation layer. If you use any of
>> the aggressive chemicals you have mentioned after cleaning you
>> will reintroduce them. This is not a smooth surface you can just
>> wipe them off. The get sucked in.
>>
>> Finally upon removing from the oven you can instead soak them like
>> hot potatoes in hot paraffin or other of these microcrystalline
>> waxes and oils. Hot, so it is absorbed into all those crevices that
>> have been created by you removing the oxides and nature's
>> ambient forces beating the buried meteorite. Then a little of the oil
>> when all is cooled every now and then wont's hurt on the
>> surface and is the easiest way to keep things in check."
>>
>> OK, now you change the question to ask to me and others:
>> "It's possible to convert nude grey to nude black? Without using oil
>> or waxes?
>> Or it's better to use a different process for remove rust?
>>
>> To that my thought is you must experiment under your conditions with
>> oven *heat alone* after treatment. Use with different oven
>> times and temperatures until you see what tones you can achieve. The
>> heat will create some of these darkening effects,
>> re-oxidizing the fresh surface in a controlled way which I think is
>> what you are asking to do since you don't want coatings. The
>> purpose of the wax or oil is to stabilize the interior, not to color
>> the surface, so this is independent of your surface staining..
>> A side effect of oil is that dark fresh, chloride free rust is taken
>> up in the oil and smuges (colors) the surface darker, the more
>> you rub...with gloves.
>>
>> You ask about no use of oil, but consider your severely rusted
>> original meteorite is porous after the thousands of years
>> terrestrialized somewhat, so any exterior coating will not protect
>> the interior. Oil is principally for that purpose, to close any
>> pores and keep the interior cleaned, IMO, no matter how you
>> destructively stain your native metal that has been revealed after
>> cleaning.
>>
>> Better yet, buy a more solid meteorite like Gibeon or Seymchan and
>> give it a light brushing like your links. Some of those links
>> are beautiful and solid. They are not so prone to rust because they
>> are like solid metal parts - not porous. The underlying metal
>> is good sh*t! Just like buying good new tools, properly hardened,
>> not some junk from cheap factory using inferior or degraded
>> quality base metal.
>>
>> Or maybe rub a little microfine graphite lubrication particles into
>> the oil until you get the favorite shade of black. It is
>> easily removed, including on fingers LOL (I never did that but it
>> might be interesting)
>>
>> Maybe others who are more practiced in this can help but this is the
>> best I can say. Best of luck!
>> Doug
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Francesco Moser <cojack at tiscali.it>
>> To: 'MexicoDoug' <mexicodoug at aol.com>
>> Sent: Mon, Nov 28, 2016 9:51 am
>> Subject: R: iron meteorite natural color
>>
>> Hello Doug!
>> Thanks a lot for your kind and long reply!
>>
>> I think I was misunderstood due to my poor English.
>> Let me try to explain what I mean and what I want to reach as result,
>> I use some pictures as example so maybe I can explain what I
>> have in my mind at best.
>> I don't want to put paint on the meteorite, absolutely no!
>>
>> A fresh fall iron meteorite is gray/bluish, like this fresh fall:
>> http://www.marmet-meteorites.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/.pond/alihmani.jpg.w560h747.jpg
>>
>> Some Sikhote-Alin hold the original dark/bluish fusion crust in the
>> deepest regmaglypts.
>> I don't want to replicate this!
>>
>> If the meteorite fall in a desert there will be on the surface a
>> desert varnish patina, like this Gibeon and Taza:
>> http://megameteorite.com/img/meteoriti/famose/ferrose/gibeon_728.9.jpg
>> http://www.polandmet.com/_taza/002.htm
>> That's an amazing surface! I like it so much and I consider really
>> natural.
>> I don't want to replicate this!
>>
>> A deep buried meteorite like Muonionalusta have a thick layer of
>> oxide, rock and soil cemented with rust and something else.
>> Like this:
>> http://thumbs.picclick.com/00/s/MTIyNlgxNjAw/z/R9QAAOSw44BYKadV/$/Iron-meteorite-Muonionalusta-complete-piece-Sweden-1370-grams-_57.jpg
>>
>> This meteorite of course is natural, it is in as found condition!
>> Sorry but I don't really like this surface looking.
>>
>> If I deep clean and blast sanding a meteorite like this I will obtain
>> a nude grey iron meteorite.
>> Something like this Dronino:
>> http://thumbs.picclick.com/00/s/OTc2WDE2MDA=/z/vZYAAOSwmfhX5vTW/$/172-gram-DRONINO-METEORITE-specimen-from-RUSSIA-_57.jpg
>>
>> For me this looking is too artificial and I don't like it.
>> I can reach this results, I have done this job some time on Muonio
>> before cutting slices.
>>
>> So ... as found condition is "too natural" and "nude grey iron" is
>> too artificial!
>> This is in my opinion a good half way:
>> http://www.polandmet.com/_morasko/003.htm
>> Nude black iron!!!
>> This is what I mean in my first mail and premise
>> "As we know an iron meteorite, such like Campo del Cielo for example,
>> have a black surface."
>> All the Campo I found on the market have this type of "black" surface:
>> http://www.katiepaterson.org/meteorite/katie_paterson_meteorite_giorgia_polizzi_120711_6695.jpg
>>
>>
>> This is what I want!!!
>>
>> So .. how can I deeply remove rust and preserve this nude black iron
>> surface?
>> I'm planning to use sand blasting for remove the rust, but with this
>> process I will obtain a "nude grey iron"
>> It's possible to convert nude grey to nude black? Without using oil
>> or waxes?
>> Or it's better to use a different process for remove rust?
>>
>>
>> I hope you can understand what I mean :)
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>> <x>x<x>x<x>
>> Francesco
>>
>>
>> -----Messaggio originale-----
>> Da: MexicoDoug [mailto:mexicodoug at aol.com]
>> Inviato: sabato 26 novembre 2016 22:46
>> A: Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com
>> Oggetto: Re: iron meteorite natural color
>>
>> Ciao Francisco
>>
>> I'll try to give you a little more insight on your questions from my
>> point of view and then write about what is practical to do.
>> It is important to stress "point of view" because in the end you will
>> probably do with your meteorites whatever makes you happiest,
>> which clearly the impulse at this point is a jet black cosmetic
>> preference of smooth black which I do not like when it is a
>> synthetic laboratory process.
>>
>> First, you initially you asked:
>>
>> "As we know an iron meteorite, such like Campo del Cielo for example,
>> have a black surface. I have here a deeply rusted Campo, I'm
>> planning to remove rust with a sand blasting process. But with this I
>> will obtain a grayish surface, like naked iron, the same
>> color of a slice."
>>
>> This is *not* "as we know". I do not know of Campo meteorites being
>> recovered with black surfaces, do you or anybody else know
>> this? I never personally had the good fortune to recover a Campo
>> myself so it it my assumption. I have recovered other iron
>> meteorites. All are light or dark orange rust color except one
>> locality that actually was naturally weathered to black.
>>
>> So I feel your original premise of "as we know ... Campo ... black"
>> is a false premise. Is it based on a mixed series of
>> assumptions maybe due to equating space, mystery, adrenaline, and
>> night to blackness, seeing some naturally blackened weathered
>> meteorites, imagining a stony meteorite fresh crust for your iron,
>> and maybe never seeing a freshly fallen iron meteorite that has
>> not be cleaned and altered its surface by sellers for markets such as
>> jewelry where a concept is being marketed and not what is
>> "natural"?
>>
>> Rubbing mineral or other appropriate oil and if you are serious like
>> hinted by Marcin, dry, quite gentle oven heat will darken the
>> metal, the later also mentioned by Marcin.
>>
>> The initial fall fresh probably had a blue-gray color, like metal
>> heated in a furnace. It is somewhat darker but the coloring is
>> the fusion crust. Your Campo has lost its fusion crust a long time
>> ago. If you have an uncrusted ordinary chondrite fragment
>> would you also want to treat the matrix surface to turn it black?
>> No! What you have exposed it the interior, in its natural
>> color. Now you want to make it dark.
>>
>> OK, so you work so hard to removed all the oxides/rusts and
>> chlorides, and now you want to treat it to return them. Only this time
>> you want to do it in a controlled fashion to fake the look of natural
>> weathering.
>>
>> Let us look what nature does. If it is fresh and dry, it can blacken
>> and leave intact real fusion crust. Most likely though, it
>> will fall in a humid environment and rust orange and form some
>> surface scale or shale. Sometimes you can get a tough rather
>> orange, near black, coating like Gibeons can appear on the market.
>> But let's instead think of natural.
>>
>> WHAT IS NATURAL? (asks Pilate!) Natural is a very gradual and slow
>> process in which oxidation takes place, perhaps not too deeply
>> as to preserve smooth fusion crust in many finds and falls. It
>> requires many many cycles of: oxidize lightly, oxidize uniformly,
>> clean (perhaps by wind abrasion and washed by distilled rain, even
>> acid rain is effective.
>>
>> Now you want to falsely reproduce that process on the matrix of a
>> long rusted meteorite that has been pickled in aggressive caustic
>> chemicals. That's gross! It is like skinning off the hide of an
>> animal and then coloring its remaining carcass the color of fur
>> for display instead of the natural colors of the muscles, fats and
>> organs.
>>
>> OK, but you still want to do it and don't agree with me. There are
>> more problems. The naturally colored meteorites that are black
>> or orange and have little to no scaling and original layers of fusion
>> crust at the least alpha-2 layer, may be significantly
>> impervious to seepage, but your Campo has already developed cracks,
>> faults internal cavities from rot that was removed, due to
>> thousands of years un soil and rain, powerful roots, expansion and
>> contraction by temperature changes, and general oxidative
>> terrestrial processes, solubilization of corrosive catalysts you.ve
>> removed, you hope.
>>
>> My point is you can color it however you want, but the fake coloring
>> will be misleading, it will not have inside a
>> weathering-naturally stabilized meteorite and its internals due to
>> their porous and fissured nature will not be as represented.
>> The more you do to an iron to make a faux patina, possibly the more
>> you will need to work to redo regularly. The more it is
>> handled the more contaminants will get into it from sweat, etc.
>> And!!! to make that false patina fool those to think it closer to
>> natural, you must dig into the surface of your material and oxidize
>> it in a controlled manner, further weathering the piece of
>> bright matrix you cut (not with a saw but with chemicals).
>>
>> The simplest things are: degrease with acetone if you are serious,
>> then dry gentle heat a few hours followed by a good oil and you
>> will build up a light protective oxidation layer. If you use any of
>> the aggressive chemicals you have mentioned after cleaning you
>> will reintroduce them. This is not a smooth surface you can just
>> wipe them off. The get sucked in.
>>
>> Finally upon removing from the oven you can instead soak them like
>> hot potatoes in hot paraffin or other of these microcrystalline
>> waxes and oils. Hot, so it is absorbed into all those crevices that
>> have been created by you removing the oxides and nature's
>> ambient forces beating the buried meteorite. The a little of the oil
>> when all is cooled every now and then wont's hurt on the
>> surface and is the easiest way to keep things in check.
>>
>> Hope that helps more! I apologize for my point of view but it is
>> based on my idea of what a meteorite "should look like" which is
>> an emotional concept and I agree here that this is only my personal
>> opinion, authentically conserving whatever characteristics of
>> the locality possible, and balancing that with preventing rampant
>> oxidation. It is like cleaning coins. The only thin worse than
>> a cleaned coin is one that has been cleaned and then colored in some
>> way to hid the fact it was cleaned, usually to sell for more
>> as a coin that never was cleaned will fetch from buyers.
>>
>> Other options besides paint, are VCI systems to preserve
>> professionally used by some hard core collectors, and electroplating
>> metals used for jewelry ... You can even try silver which will be
>> initially bright but will soon turn very black!
>>
>> My best,
>> Doug
>> (Feeling like H.H.Nininger now when he bellyached about people
>> etching iron meteorites with a border of shellac on the slices to
>> leave a very "unnatural" etch of the slice. He felt this would be
>> detrimental to people understanding what a meteorite truly
>> looked like and do a disservice to meteoritics. Notwithstanding, this
>> practice had become popular amount some nowadays as ol' H.H.
>> rolls over...)
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Francesco Moser via Meteorite-list
>> <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
>> To: Meteorite-list <Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
>> Sent: Sat, Nov 26, 2016 11:20 am
>> Subject: [meteorite-list] R: iron meteorite natural color
>>
>> Marcin and Doug!
>> Thanks for your replys!
>>
>> Ok, I understand what you mean about the authenticity of color.
>> For sure the desert varnish of some iron meteorite like Gibeon or
>> Henbury is the most natural looking for a find (not fall)
>> meteorite.
>> But old and buried meteorite like Muonionalusta or Campo have a very
>> thick rust and oxide crust, I suppose no one want to have that
>> on his irons.
>> So after remove and clean all the rust shale what remains? Grey nude
>> iron ... it is absolutely not natural!!!
>> So for me on this type of meteorite the black surface is something
>> better that the nude iron, isn't?
>> Of course I don't want to paint the meteorite, just convert the nude
>> grey iron to dark.
>> How it is possible? With oil?
>>
>> All the Campo that are on the market have nude dark iron on the
>> surface, how can I reach the same looking starting from nude grey
>> iron results of sand blasting?
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>>
>> Ciao
>>
>> <x>x<x>x<x>
>> Francesco
>>
>>
>> -----Messaggio originale-----
>> Da: Meteorite-list
>> [mailto:meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com] Per conto di
>> Marcin Cimala - POLANDMET via Meteorite-list
>> Inviato: giovedì 24 novembre 2016 23:42
>> A: Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com
>> Oggetto: Re: [meteorite-list] iron meteorite natural color
>>
>>> Hello,
>>> I have a question.
>>> As we know an iron meteorite, such like Campo del Cielo for example,
>>> have a black surface.
>>> I have here a deeply rusted Campo, I'm planning to remove rust with a
>>> sand blasting process.
>>> But with this I will obtain a greysh surface, like naked iron, the
>>> same color of a slice.
>>> Not really a natural color for the exterior of an iron meteorite and
>>> also not aestetically pretty, looks too artificial for me.
>>> There is something to do for restore the original black color?
>>> Or it's better to remove the rust with a traditional steel brush,
>>> maybe with a drill ???
>>>
>>> Tips for mechanical or chemical process are welkomme!!!
>>> I can try with the classical NaOh bath, I have also Phosphoric, Citric
>>> and Oxalic acid :)
>>>
>>> Thanks
>>> <x>x<x>x<x>
>>> Francesco
>>
>> Hah good question Francesco. But what is natural color of meteorite
>> at all ?
>>
>> Desert sandblasted NWA is not a real looking meteorite? Should I
>> paint them black to be looking like a real meteorites ? Poor
>> Dhofars....
>> This is what Im fighting long time. Strange stereotype that meteorite
>> MUST BE BLACK outside, WHY ?
>>
>> When You like Your girlfrend ? When he smile to You with his pretty
>> face or when she put ton of Max Factor chemicals on it??
>>
>> I have always strange taste, different than most of collectors. For
>> me, if specimen have crust must be black or black with rusty
>> patina. If meteorite have no more crust like Campo, why to "paint" it
>> to black to looks like Sikhote ? Then You will see paint, not
>> Your meteorite. I only can imagine what strange things they do to
>> clean Campo and look it like that. LOL
>>
>> OK now a few tips.
>> As I understand Your Campo is a complete specimen ? To remove deep
>> rust You must use electrochemical cleaning + brush + small
>> hammer. Then You will get mostly cleaned meteorite with BLACK remains
>> of rust that will make Your meteorite looks REAL.Then heat it
>> and put alot of oil to make it looks fresh and oriented :)
>>
>> -----[ MARCIN CIMALA ]----[ +48 793567667 ]-----
>> http://www.Meteoryty.pl marcin(at)meteoryty.pl
>> http://www.PolandMET.com marcin(at)polandmet.com
>> --------[ Member of Polish Meteoritical Society ]--------
>>
>>
>>
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