[meteorite-list] New BLM regs: Tempest in a teacup?
Norm Lehrman
nlehrman at nvbell.net
Tue Oct 2 09:13:53 EDT 2012
I don't disagree with your thoughts. I am neither a defender nor an apologist
for the BLM regs. I am simply stating that there is almost nothing new in the
recently announced regs other than the poundage limitation.
----- Original Message ----
From: Mark Bowling <minador at yahoo.com>
To: Meteorite List <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
Sent: Mon, October 1, 2012 10:49:03 PM
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] New BLM regs: Tempest in a teacup?
I disagree Norm,
I'm not a commercial hunter. All the meteorites I find, I keep. But If I sell
someday sell one stone (0.05% of the total I find), I'm considered a commercial
hunter. If I trade one stone in a thousand, I'm considered a commercial hunter
and I have to spend 5, 10 or 15 hundred dollars for the privilege to selling or
trade a common $50 meteorite. If I get sick and have to sell my collection to
pay medical bills or save my house, I'm breaking the law. Sure it's not likely
they will not come get me, but I am on the slippery path of skirting the rule of
law. At least before there wasn't an explicit rule against selling something
now and then.
I've never needed a permit to collect one decorative boulder on BLM land (maybe
I've been breaking the law??). Still I think that me collecting one landscaping
boulder every few years is quite different from someone selling hundreds of them
to supplement their income. That definitely requires a permit because it's
blatant commercial use.
They say "casually collecting" meteorites is allowed free, without a permit.
But a casual hobby hunter, who may someday TRADE a meteorite (even with a
scientific institution), is required to wait an unspecified number of days
(almost 200 days according to what Jim has learned) to purchase a
commercial permit. The BLM states that an environmental survey will be required
before a permit will be granted, and we don't know yet if they will require a
new survey when you apply for a renewal (for the same couple days spent walking
over the same land).
I hunt maybe 10 days a year, and now I will have to pay several hundred dollars
to be legal (maybe thousand because they charge you for the hours spent
processing the paperwork, plus the time spent for the survey, plus time for
enforcement and auditing my activities).
And if they want to audit me, does that mean I have to schedule my hunts ahead
of time. Is my permit only good for a fixed time period? They don't explain
how long the permits are good for or if they are for a calendar year. It makes
it very difficult to plan a hobby hunt. Most of my hunts are short notice.
It's very difficult to plan 180 + days ahead of time. 10 days a year seems very
casually collected to me, certainly not commercial collection.
Say I apply for a hunt the summer of 2013, and they finally approve my permit
months later - that leaves very little hunting time. And what if my only
remaining vacation is Christmas/New Years break (do I need a new permit to
complete my hunt?). Most hunters I know visit a site anytime they are able -
they don't plan it out.
If I want to hunt in Holbrook and then go to Gold Basin and Franconia (which I
and many others do), do I need new permits and environmental surveys for each
site? If I want to visit Benson, Arizona, Wilcox Playa, Dos Cabezas and then
skip over to New Mexico, I'm leaving the State (which requires new permit
applications).
This is not a commercial activity, like a mine where you schedule activities
decades out. The site the BLM directs us to for examples of how applications
will be applied, example timelines and how the regulations are applied, is a
site that discusses pipeline projects, solar farms, cell towers sites, etc.
This is not put in place to govern meteorite collecting; it will be used to
deter "commercial" (hobby) hunting and legitimate commercial hunting. 67% of
Federal land is closed to mine exploration. I'd say ~50% is closed to metal
detecting. Why do they want to restrict even more land available for us to
hunt?
Worst yet, this will drive meteorites more underground. Important scientific
data will be lost to a greater degree. Locations will be faked more than ever
before. With the criminalization of U.S. meteorites, people may be less
inclined to trade fresh material for U.S. material. Are pre-2012 meteorites
grandfathered, or will all American meteorites be suspect? Even with proper
papers from an institution, it can be expensive to prove yourself innocent (as
this will be an environmental infraction, GUPI rules apply and good luck winning
an EAJA case).
This is not like other commercial activities, where I have exclusive use. If I
have a lode mining claim, nobody else is allowed to prospect or metal detect.
If I have a quarry or boulder business, nobody can collect at my site. If I
have grazing rights, nobody else can run cattle. If I have a study site, nobody
can disturb anything. Fuel wood permit, etc. etc. My permit doesn't exclude
limitless others from trying their luck, even if I spend $thou$and$ for the
right to hunt an area.
If this is based on long-standing policies, why are there so many unanswered
questions?
These are some of the basic reasons it bothers me. There are others, but I've
gone too long already.
Best wishes to you and all readers,
Mark
________________________________
From: Norm Lehrman <nlehrman at nvbell.net>
To: Jim Wooddell <jimwooddell at gmail.com>; Meteorite List
<meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
Sent: Monday, October 1, 2012 5:12 PM
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] New BLM regs: Tempest in a teacup?
Jim & all,
Commercial users always had to have permits. Permits always took their
time. This is not new Rockhounders were always prohibited from commercial
endeavors. This is not new. Meteorite hunters were lumped in with rockhounders
until now. The only real change that I can see is the change in poundage
limits---a major change for sure, but how many of us have had years where the 10
pound limit would've been a problem? It can happen, but quite rarely. I have
recovered hundreds of meteorite (fragments) in Nevada, but nowhere near 10
pounds per year. Probably the main point of all this is that we are now under
scrutiny and attracting explicit personalized regulation where before we were
pretty much under the radar. However, the "new" explicit meteorite regulations
are mostly not new, but rather, a formal restatement of long-standing policies
governing rockhounding on BLM-managed lands.
Norm
----- Original Message ----
From: Jim Wooddell <jimwooddell at gmail.com>
To: Meteorite List <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
Sent: Mon, October 1, 2012 4:38:39 PM
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] New BLM regs: Tempest in a teacup?
Hello Norm,
I beleive that was 25 pounds a day, now 10 pounds a year.
Science and Commerical users now require permits. Casual hunters not
allowed to sell. Hmmm. Permit processes can take 185 days.
I'd say that's significant.
Jim
On Sun, Sep 30, 2012 at 10:17 PM, Count Deiro <countdeiro at earthlink.net> wrote:
> Sorry Norm. Your take on the BLM being some kind of begnign overseer who will
>look the other way couldn't be farther from the truth. Just wait till the next
>highly publicized fall amd someone admits to picking up something significant
>from public land. The BLM will be all over him/her like white on a golf ball.
>What! No permit? Didn't know this land was restricted? Gimme that! Here! Take
>this citation!
>
> Guido
>
> -----Original Message-----
>>From: Norm Lehrman <nlehrman at nvbell.net>
>>Sent: Sep 30, 2012 8:17 PM
>>To: Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com
>>Subject: [meteorite-list] New BLM regs: Tempest in a teacup?
>>
>>All,
>>
>>I have been following this thread with great confusion, and maybe there IS
>>something I don't understand. Meteorite collecting has previously fallen
under
>>the general rules of rockhounding, and the new changes merely formalize a
>>specific policy that is no great change from the past rules. I am quite sure
I
>>will be hugey chastised for my ignorance. Please correct me if I missed
>>something.
>>
>>The previous rules said 25 pounds and/or one rock. Now it's 10 pounds and no
>>provision for the big one with respect to meteorites. How often will that
>>actually afect us? Almost never. The use of motorized vehicles off marked
>>roads is also a general policy, not just for us. Metal detectors are
>explicitly
>>allowed. Surely a magnet on a stick is also still fine.
>>
>>Commercial exploitation of BLM ground is subject to a long standing guideline.
>>Find a monster? It is only fair that the land-owner (all Americans) should
get
>>some benefit. This is no change. If you want to harvest building stones or
>>ornamental boulders, you pay a fee. We will too. No real change.
>>
>>I see no great disaster here. Just a formalization of a specific policy,
>thanks
>>(?) to our own loud self-promotion in its various forms. Of course they had
>to
>>get explicit. It is not much more than a clear, specific, restatement of the
>>rules we were all subject to before now. Or did no one understand this? Yes,
>>they may choose to make their point by prosecuting someone, but I will be
>amazed
>>if this involves changes in the law. Just enforcement of those already
extant.
>>At worst with fairly minor changes.
>>
>>Have at it. I am waiting to be reprimanded for my folly. What am I missing?
>>
>>Best,
>>Norm (http://www.tektitesource.com/)
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--
Jim Wooddell
jimwooddell at gmail.com
928-247-2675
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They're not treating this like a rockhound fee site where you pay a fixed fee.
Costs and exact regulations are left up to each district. And while metal
detectors are allowed in general, there is no guarantee they will be. Adam Hupe
was told by the BLM that metal detectors and magnet sticks are not allowed at
Ivanpah Dry Lake. Is this lake different than other dry lakes?
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