[meteorite-list] Auction Kings ( PROVENANCE COA's )

Sat Mar 24 11:58:09 EDT 2012

Yes Adam, provenance, COA, and ID cards can be very different things.
Saying I got some specimens from Adam, Greg, or any number of the great
people who do the collecting, purchasing, and classifying is never intended
as a COA, but, it does assure others that it's not from the driveway,
railway, or some cave somewhere. 

On 3:41:58 pm 03/24/12 Adam Hupe <raremeteorites at yahoo.com> wrote:
> I think collectors might be confusing COAs with ID cards.  We are
> lucky that ID cards suffice in the meteorite market most of the time. 
> As far as I know, nobody has passed off counterfeit ID cards from my
> collection yet.  This would be like poking a stick into a beehive as
> far as I am concerned.  The only COAs I have provided that were printed
> by myself were for crumbs or cutting dust encased in laminated
> collectors cards. The pieces were so small that I felt collectors would
> appreciate a little more assurance. They are also serialized with the
> certification statement on the back.
> The only other COAs I have provided came with some NWA 5000
> specimens.  These COAs came from an immensely-qualified independent
> grader.  I had no input whatsoever on how individual specimens would be
> graded since many factors were independently taken into account.   I
> have never graded any specimens myself.  I have however provided
> comments when I feel a special feature needs to be pointed out. The
> grades that came on my ID cards were provided by researchers approved
> by the Meteoritical Society's Nomenclature Committee and can be
> referenced in the Bulletin.  Despite popular belief, there are a few
> errors in the Bulletin so no system is perfect. 
>
> I hope this clears things up,
>
> Kind Regards,
>
>
> Adam
>
> ________________________________
> From: John higgins <geohiggins at yahoo.com>
> To: "meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com" <meteorite-list at meteoritecen
> tral.com>
> Sent: Friday, March 23, 2012 11:31 AM
> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Auction Kings ( PROVENANCE COA's )
>
> Hi Mike, Adam, and List,
> Interesting opinions.
>
> You guys touched on a major issue in the Meteorite Community, and
> there are parts of your statements I don't agree with. I would really
> like to share how I feel about the subject.
> First of all Mike you said,
>
> " I thought this was laughable for obvious
> reasons and a man who runs an auction house should know that 99% of
> COA's are not worth the paper they are printed on.  I can go outside,
> grab a rock from my driveway, and print up an official-looking COA for
> it."
>
> Mike with all due respect, I don't agree with this. Why would you try
> to knock a dealers reputation? For example a meteorite sold by Mike
> Farmer or Greg Hupe is worth more than a meteorite that is sold without
> any provenance or COA.
> For example lets say unknown dealer X is selling a Howardite, and
> well known dealer Y is selling the same Howardite. Who do you think is
> going to realize a higher price? The well know dealer.
> Now if that meteorite losses it's COA from the dealer who sold it,
> what happens? Usually the meteorite immediately looses value, how can
> you explain this if the COA is not worth the paper it's printed on?
> For example a meteorite said to be from from the Bob Hagg collection
> without Bob's paperwork has a much lower value than a meteorite from
> the Bob Hagg collection with his COA right?
> So please extrapolate exactly what you mean and how you come to this
> conclusion. I strongly disagree with your opinion. Much of the value in
> meteorites is locked up in the provenance and not the meteorite itself
> in my opinion.
> I think what is much too overlooked is that a meteorite dealers
> reputation is the most important factor in meteorite prices. That
> includes the following they create, the friends they make, impressions
> that collectors get all translate into value and that it why most
> collectors demand individual COA's be issued with each meteorite sold.
> I think this makes a lot of sense because the process it takes to build
> a good reputation takes years. The piece of paper adds value. Of course
> a paper from Hagg is worth more than a COA from Joe Schmo. But to say
> the paper has no value is the most insane thing I ever heard. How else
> would you know if your buying pedigree meteorites from dealers who
> stand for integrity, honor and strive to provide the customer the best
> experience. A lot of new comers think that the value is in the
> meteorite itself, and then when they try to sell them, they are greatly
> let down and wonder why their meteorites don't fetch the same price
> that the other more well known dealers get all day long. Because it
> comes down to more than just the meteorite itself and taking it for
> face value. You fail to consider the amount of friends the advanced
> dealers had made over the years, the networking they have done and the
> awareness they have created about their meteorite and the way they are
> presented. And most importantly the way they make their customers feel
> is the most important factor to me.
> Is it just a roughly cut rock, sloppily thrown in a bag with a
> sharpie marking? OR IS IT A EXPERIENCE FOR THE CUSTOMER? The experience
> adds value, making the customer feel good is an integral part of any
> business, even meteorite dealing. The COA and provenance conveys that
> feeling to the customer. It makes them say WOW! I can't wait to see
> what this dealer has to offer me next. It gives them something to hold
> onto other than just the meteorite itself. Sure you can put on narrow
> vision goggles and only focus on the meteorite itself, throwing
> everything else away and assigning absolutely no value as to how the
> meteorite ended up where it is, but I don't think that's a very
> scientific approach. It's all part of the story and how you ended up
> with the specimen is a big part of meteorites and collecting.
> I for one get very depressed when I buy a meteorite on eBay and it
> comes with no card! What happens if I lose the bag it's in or the
> marking wears off? what happens to the specimen, the value drops to 0.
> Cant sell it because you don't know what it is. And if you ever do want
> to sell it, how can you prove where it came from. The COA answers a lot
> of those questions, sure you can explain to kingdom come what it is,
> but it wont prove the origin for the 99% of meteorite collectors who
> demand provenance, and I don't blame them one bit. The value to any
> assigned meteorite is less without the papers.
> Now I will admit, it can all come down to perspective, when your
> dealing with small micro fragments, I sympathize with your view Mike,
> it's not worth the time or the expense to make a COA, but you can
> always give something, even a little piece of paper I hope, to say it
> came from you and what it is. Maybe comparing a micro to a macro is
> useless and it's like comparing Apples to Oranges... Two totally
> different perspectives that are neither right or wrong just are what
> they are, each of us our own independent opinions.
> Adam you said,
>
> " A properly papered item will almost always bring in the big
>  bucks in an auction house whereas it may not do so well on eBay where
>  some dealers tend to print their own COAs and grade items
> themselves."
> Adam, with all due respect, I don't understand this statement, where
> do you and your COA's fit into the picture? Don't you print the COA and
> describe/grade the meteorites you sell and classify? Sounds like you
> would be hesitant to buy meteorites from yourself? I think comparing
> baseball cards and antiques that hold cultural value to meteorites that
> hold both cultural and scientific value, is like comparing Apples to
> Oranges.
> To Everyone,
> I would like to go one step further, I urge the meteorite community
> at large to consider standardizing COA's and provenance. Each dealer
> should still have his/her own unique style but there should be a simple
> standardized field of data provided for each specimen. This will
> promote the science of studying them, adding value to all of our
> collections in the future.
> Thanks for taking the time to hear my opinion, Have a Great Day!
> Best Regards,
> John Higgins
> www.outerspacerocks.com
> IMCA # 9822
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Michael Gilmer <meteoritemike at gmail.com>
> To: Adam Hupe <raremeteorites at yahoo.com>
> Cc: Adam <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
> Sent: Friday, March 23, 2012 11:51 AM
> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Auction Kings meteorite - $2000
> SikhoteAlin
> Hi Adam and List,
>
> Some good points there.
>
> About COA's - even if a COA comes from a trusted grading or
> certification firm, the value in the COA is not the COA itself, it is
> the name of the grading or certification service on it that is known
> to collectors of that particular type of collectible.  If you buy a
> rare collectible and the COA says "Confirmed authentic by Acme
> Certification Services, Walla Walla Washington, Serial number
> #123456", then the value of the certificate is that the buyer or
> potential buyer can contact Acme Services, have them check their
> database and confirm that the item in question is indeed genuine.
> However, anyone can print a piece of paper that looks like it came
> from Acme Certification Services and the ruse will only be exposed if
> the buyer follows up on the info printed on the COA.   The COA itself
> is worthless.
>
> In the world of meteorites, there is no certification service or
> central authority that can be relied upon to authenticate meteorites.
> Without an authoritative body backing a COA, it's just a pretty piece
> of paper.
>
> Otherwise, I agree 100% with the other things you said.  :)
>
> Best regards,
>
> MikeG
> --
> -----------------------------------------------------------
> Galactic Stone & Ironworks - MikeG
>
> Web: http://www.galactic-stone.com
> Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/galacticstone
> Twitter: http://twitter.com/GalacticStone
> RSS: http://www.galactic-stone.com/rss/126516
> -----------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
> On 3/23/12, Adam Hupe <raremeteorites at yahoo.com> wrote:
> >  A lot of buyers judge the price of collectable items from eBay. 
> >  EBay is not known for fetching top dollar, especially on
> >  collectables.  A solid auction house will almost always fetch more
> >  than what would be realized on eBay.  The problem with many
> >  auction houses is that their commissions are out of line, some
> >  charging in excess of 40%! Then some fleece the buyers with
> > expensive shipping and handling fees.
> >  Don't get me wrong, there are a few great auction companies out
> >  there, I have used some of them.  One problem I encountered is
> >  that if the item doesn't sell or the buyer can't pay for the item
> >  after bidding on it, then the seller can be out of some serious
> >  money including catalog and no-sell fees.  They need to do a
> > better job of vetting their bidders!
> >  A lot of dealers don't bother with middle men anymore since they
> >  can get wholesale prices right off of eBay.  Some specialty shops
> >  get most of there product from eBay, mark it up considerably and
> >  put it on their shelves. The problem is that a lot the collectable
> >  items offered on eBay have no expertise behind them and are
> >  accidentally or purposely misrepresented.
> >
> >  There are reputable independent companies that can authenticate
> >  and paper items so COAs  are important to me.  I wouldn't purchase
> >  a valuable coin, baseball card or any other collectable without
> >  first seeing that it has been papered through an independent
> >  grading and certificate service.  A properly papered item will
> >  almost always bring in the big bucks in an auction house whereas
> >  it may not do so well on eBay where some dealers tend to print
> > their own COAs and grade items themselves.
> >  Kind Regards and Happy Collecting,
> >
> >  Adam
> >  ______________________________________________
> >
> >  Visit the Archives at
> >  http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html
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> >
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