[meteorite-list] International Laws related to meteorites link - good info

Thu Jul 19 21:51:31 EDT 2012

Hello All,

Greg Catterton said:

> How can you say that after your first two comments? Anne Black has repeatedly stated Sulagiri and meteorites from India are
> ILLEGAL, same as Berduc and others.

It seems that Anne's word alone is not sufficient to create new laws
in India.  She quoted the 1865 reference to me, and it does not seem
to exist.  Berduc, on the other hand, does appear to be illegally
exported based on what I've heard about Argentina's laws, but I
haven't looked into that and feel unqualified to comment.

> ITS NOT ABOUT ME. Its not about you... its about the export laws that in your first comment above, CLEARLY shows that its not
> acceptable to the local law/governing bodies.

At the time, India was the property of the crown, and Britain has
never had any export laws pertaining to British meteorites.  Thus,
your interpretation of the circulars/letters as some form of a
prohibitive export law makes no sense whatsoever.

It would be like the US restricting the export of meteorites from
Puerto Rico while ignoring/allowing exports from the mainland.  Again,
it simply does not make sense.

You have no evidence to suggest that the export of meteorites from
India is illegal, yet you continue to insist upon that notion.  This
really does seem to be about YOU versus the IMCA.  And ME.  Lol.

Jason

On Thu, Jul 19, 2012 at 6:21 PM, Greg Catterton
<star_wars_collector at yahoo.com> wrote:
> Jason said:
>
>  "As best I can tell, the existing arrangement is a domestic protocol
> for local officials to follow if they obtain a meteorite.  However,
> recent meteorite falls in India have been commandeered by the
> government by local officials (and, it seems, GSI employees) with
> those officials threatening imprisonment if locals sell their finds.
> I wasn't able to find any legal justification for this, but heard
> similar stories surrounding both Katol and Sulagiri."
>
> Then said:
> "As one can see above, "I am directed to request that all Indian
> Meteorites may, in future, be transmitted to the Trustees of the
> Indian Museum in preference to sending them direct to England." "
>
> Followed by HIS OPINION
> "It would seem that the above letter directly refers to the exportation
> of meteorites from India as legal, or at least as legal as it might be
> to export a meteorite from England (legal), since the law (if it can
> be called that) was a British mandate."
>
> How can you say that after your first two comments? Anne Black has repeatedly stated Sulagiri and meteorites from India are ILLEGAL, same as Berduc and others.
> Dont side step this and confuse the followers with your opinions Jason... Thats almost as silly as trying to redirect this subject to me. ITS NOT ABOUT ME. Its not about you... its about the export laws that in your first comment above, CLEARLY shows that its not acceptable to the local law/governing bodies.
>
> Your second comment goes on to say that they are to be sent to England. NOT to be sent out of the country to the USA (YOU) or anyone else.
> The meteorites are illegal. Anne knows this, so does the IMCA board. They are just looking the other way when one of the "clique" does it.
>
> I would have liked the IMCA board to weigh in on this since it does go directly against the code of ethics, but as usual, they will likely remain silent rather then take action against over half the dealers who are members who are breaking the code of ethics. They board should not speak out against the "black market meteorites" when they allow members to conduct activities of the very nature they stand against.
>
> If I wanted, I could send the person who wrote the story the 7 IMCA members info who are selling illegal meteorites (such as berduc and others mentioned recently) with screen captures and everything from the websites they have it listed on... wonder how that would look to the readers who see the replies from Anne and other IMCA members - even though they already know of the activity! Shame on the IMCA for being so shameful in regards to the equal enforcement of its own rules.
> Jason has his blacklist, but as with the IMCA, he picks and chooses who to include. Farmer is not on there, Ward is not, Haag is not. Mike Miller is not (convicted in GA) and so are many others who have been arrested in conjunction with meteorite hunting or sales/export... If your going to toss dirt, make sure you spread it around where it belongs Jason dont just pick and choose.
>
>
>
>
> Greg Catterton
> www.wanderingstarmeteorites.com
> On Ebay: http://stores.shop.ebay.com/wanderingstarmeteorites
> On Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/WanderingStarMeteorites
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: jason utas <jasonutas at gmail.com>
> To: Meteorite-list <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
> Cc:
> Sent: Thursday, July 19, 2012 7:14 PM
> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] International Laws related to meteorites link - good info
>
> Hello Martin, All,
> I spent some time looking into the issue as well, after last week's...debacle.
>
> I was unable to find a record of any actual laws pertaining to the
> subject, but did find the article that Greg posted and put some
> additional work into the matter.
>
> As best I can tell, the existing arrangement is a domestic protocol
> for local officials to follow if they obtain a meteorite.  However,
> recent meteorite falls in India have been commandeered by the
> government by local officials (and, it seems, GSI employees) with
> those officials threatening imprisonment if locals sell their finds.
> I wasn't able to find any legal justification for this, but heard
> similar stories surrounding both Katol and Sulagiri.
>
> The circulars/letters in question appear to have come from the ruling
> British Government as instructions for India's Government.
>
> http://books.google.com/books?id=jRUTAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA120&lpg=PA120&dq=Circular+No.+22-1777+1869+Thornton&source=bl&ots=xNJjVEoCO4&sig=BLjQnyh5DiIn3kY-lwunvpx5Bvo&hl=en&sa=X&ei=RZEIUISCJKfe2AWZm7DkBw&ved=0CEwQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=Circular%20No.%2022-1777%201869%20Thornton&f=false
>
> http://books.google.com/books?id=jRUTAAAAYAAJ&pg=RA2-PA95&lpg=RA2-PA95&dq=Letter+2447+1869+may+india&source=bl&ots=xNJjVEpvP0&sig=wxRxybUsdq_cKITHbT4HfkYFXsk&hl=en&sa=X&ei=d5IIUKiVDsKg2gW72ZnGBw&ved=0CEgQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Letter%202447%201869%20may%20india&f=false
>
> As one can see above, "I am directed to request that all Indian
> Meteorites may, in future, be transmitted to the Trustees of the
> Indian Museum in preference to sending them direct to England."
>
> It would seem that the above letter directly refers to the exportation
> of meteorites from India as legal, or at least as legal as it might be
> to export a meteorite from England (legal), since the law (if it can
> be called that) was a British mandate.
>
> The only person who offered any information along with their claim --
> that the export of Indian meteorites was prohibited -- suggested that
> the law had been in place "since 1885."
>
> I, too, was not able to find any such record.  I was also unable to
> obtain a copy of Circular No. 13--975, dated 28th of April, 1863.  I
> would like to see a copy of it if anyone can find it.
>
> Until then, and barring additional evidence, I would appreciate an
> apology from Greg Catterton.
>
> Regards,
> Jason
>
> On Thu, Jul 19, 2012 at 3:24 PM, Martin Altmann
> <altmann at meteorite-martin.de> wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> I always think, that debates about laws are vain, as long as one has not the very wordings of the law at hand.
>> I don't have the Indian law at hand, neither I found anyone, who could show it to me,
>> even those, who echo the date from the paper "1885" seem not to have it.
>>
>> I by my own found only the same words here:
>> Circular No.22-1777, dated 10th of July, 1869, by T.H.Thornton, Secretary to Government Punjab,
>> in continuation of circular No.13-975,  dated 28th of April 1863,
>> wich is, full quote of the text:
>> “directing, that all Indian Meteorites shall be in future transmitted to the Trustees of the Indian Museum.”
>>
>> I have no idea, whether that had a status of a law or whether it was only a service regulations to the administrative officers.
>>
>> Both, that one and the quote by Schmitt say nothing about ownership, export, compensations ect.
>>
>> Then -
>> India became independent in 1947 and in 1950 a republic.
>>
>> I'm not sure, whether the old laws from the British dominion are still in place.
>>
>> If they are btw. what does that mean for meteorites from Pakistan?
>>
>>
>> Furthermore:
>>
>> Hey reported in 1967 to the UNESCO Working Group on Meteorites,
>> that meteorites in India would be treated as "bona vacantia" as given in article 296 of the Indian constitution.
>>
>> Find the article here:
>> http://www.indiankanoon.org/doc/290059/
>>
>> It says that those ownerless objects found on the territory of India, of that kind, which before would be accrued to the King, will be property of the state or federal state.
>>
>> Well, I'm not sure, who is meant be the "King" from former time.
>> Was it the English King George, Emperor of India?
>> And if so, was then British Law in place in the colony?
>> Because if so, then like still today in U.K. (compare the hilarious debate in the House of Lords about the "meteorite bill"),
>> finds of gold and silver belong to the crown,
>> all other you can keep.
>>
>> Questions and questions...
>>
>> Answer can give only the law, which is in place today.
>>
>> But nobody ever saw it :-(
>> Martin
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
>> Von: cdtucson at cox.net [mailto:cdtucson at cox.net]
>> Gesendet: Donnerstag, 19. Juli 2012 19:55
>> An: Martin Altmann
>> Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] International Laws related to meteorites link - good info
>>
>> Martin,
>> Welcome back to posting. You have been missed.
>> You said;
>> "The information on India doubtful"
>> This law  is spelled out very specifically and includes the words aerolites. How much more specific could you ask? . .
>> In what way do you doubt it?
>> As it stands right now. Anybody with India's meteorites in their collection has a tainted collection.
>> If this info is incorrect there are hundreds of people that would like this clarified.
>> Please provide proof that this law is doubtful. Site references or something.
>> Carl
>> --
>> Cheers
>>
>>
>>
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