[meteorite-list] Fw: PVC death trap
Bob Loeffler
bobl at peaktopeak.com
Sun Feb 19 14:05:38 EST 2012
Hi all,
We all need to remember that the PVC pipes are there for a very good
reason.... So mining/claim people know where their claims are located and
other mining/claim people know where their claims are not. Some people live
off of what they dig out of the ground, so if you pull up someone's claim
markers, another person might encroach on their claim and dig up the real
claim owner's livelihood (which could be taking food out of his family's
mouth). So instead of pulling up or knocking down a PVC pipe, fill it with
rocks, dirt, sticks or litter. Anything so the animals can't get in it. Or
put its cap back on tightly if you find it.
I had never heard of the PVC being a problem and I've been a rockhound for
the last 15 years and have had a claim for the last 4 or 5 years. We (three
of us) marked our claim boundaries with wooden posts that are around 6 feet
long by 4 inches on a side. They are really heavy to carry by hand up in
the mountains, so I can see why someone would want to use PVC instead. They
are probably 1/4th the weight of the wooden posts. I have not heard whether
PVC is legal or not in CO, but I just found this Note on a CO BLM web page:
"Note: It is BLM policy to not use perforated or uncapped pipe as a
monument."
http://www.blm.gov/co/st/en/BLM_Programs/minerals/describing_mining_claims.h
tml
Most new mining claims in CO are on BLM land, so that's why I checked their
website.
Regards,
Bob
-----Original Message-----
From: meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com
[mailto:meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com] On Behalf Of
John.L.Cabassi
Sent: Saturday, February 18, 2012 7:21 PM
To: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Fw: PVC death trap
G'Day Sonny and List
I appreciate that update Sonny, I did not know that this was the norm.
PVC can become very destructive if not used accordingly. Even though you
cap it, if it's not glued, the caps can be removed. I like Yanan's
suggestion on those already in place.
But I find PVC pipes as an indicator to claim coordinates a poor use,
they are flexible, very hard to drive into the ground. Yes, maybe
they're easy to see from a distance being white, but there must be an
alternative. I'd hate to see any legitimate prospector's claim be torn
down because of this issue. There's lots of alternatives... Treated
stakes, they last a long time, they're solid, a little bit of paint
(red, white & blue) or maybe just alternate your colors to your claim.
It would solve a lot of problems. But everybody using white PVC does
not solve the problem, but hey there's no problems only solutions.
Alternative markers as I said earlier, treated posts 2 inches, hammered
into the ground with some color coding. Your choice.
I respect the miners, I respect their claims. I'm not going to pull out
a PVC pipe because it's not covered; because it initially was but some
less fortunate person has decided to remove the cover, for what means, I
don't know. But claim markers are important. I'm fond of all parties
living on this earth, be it birds, bacteria, plant life, the good old
homosapien. There's enough room to live harmoniously as long as we
think. Sometimes we obliverate the miniscule. Birds have every right to
live on this planet, they play an important part. They transport seeds
to other continents either on their feathers or through their droppings.
It's a never ending ecological cycle. We then have those that are
inclined to live within their confinements that don't migrate. Those are
the ones that we should be concerned about. I
I think this whole thread has been very informative. One that I have
never considered before. Just my $1.50 AU
John Cabassi - Johnno
IMCA #2125
www.MeteoriteJunction.com
MeteoriteHQ.Com (still under construction)
Twitter: @meteoritejohnno
http://facebook.com/MeteoriteJohnno
-----Original Message-----
From: meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com
[mailto:meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com] On Behalf Of
wahlperry at aol.com
Sent: Saturday, February 18, 2012 5:35 PM
To: minador at yahoo.com; meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com;
mexicodoug at aim.com
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Fw: PVC death trap
Hi Mark and List,
>I wasn't implying that you were "anti-mining"
No worries, I never thought that you were implying that. Sorry if my
post seemed that way.
You are right about the man made hazards. There have been a number of
tragic deaths in Nevada from people falling into abandoned open pit
mines. What a cool story about saving the deer. How on earth did you
ever get him out?
Best Regards,
Sonny
-----Original Message-----
From: Mark Bowling <minador at yahoo.com>
To: wahlperry <wahlperry at aol.com>; meteorite-list
<meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>; mexicodoug <mexicodoug at aim.com>
Sent: Sat, Feb 18, 2012 11:56 am
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Fw: PVC death trap
I agree with you Sonny - I wasn't implying that you were
"anti-mining". So sorry to anybody who took it that way. I agree the
pipes shouldn't be used, even if they are legal.
I read the original article before writing my response but I missed the
part that said some caps have been falling off, but I do see that
mentioned this new article. That's a shame. My caps were pretty tight
because I've had to remove them to correct bad info that I carved into
them. Still, many of mine have probably fallen off by now too.
Another problem not mentioned is that the PVC beaks down and the pipes
break, creating new openings... I've seen a lot of broken ones in the
field.
It's ultimately up to the regulators to define what markers are
allowed, and if anybody doesn't comply, they will have to waste their
time and money doing it right because their claim is invalid. That
should be motivation enough to do it right going forward. They also
say they can face fines through the migratory bird treaty act. But the
problem is all the historic, abandoned markers. How do you fine people
for something that was a condoned legal practice? I think the only way
to get the problem fixed is for people like us to pull them out one by
one when we happen upon them.
But be careful, this a state issue because most states define how to
mark federal mining claims. I think the posts are still legal in some
states, and you could get in trouble for removing them. It may just be
allowed in Nevada, so ask your local BLM office about it if you're in
another state. I will inquire here in AZ.
I'd like to point out that while thousands of claim markers are a huge
hazard for birds, there are other hazards too. Litter is a huge
problem and it's been illegal for a long time. The vast majority of
the claims were staked with the blessing of the BLM. Nobody saw the
hazard before now. The article mentions lizards. I've found hundreds
of dead lizards, snakes and such in beer bottles/cans, and many
dead deer and even a live one trapped in large dig holes. It felt good
getting the live, though weak deer out of the hole. We fenced off the
hole (it was an old prospect pit). I have also found dead animals that
were trapped in abandoned cars. A lot of desert
tortoises unfortunately die each year because of man-made hazards.
It's amazing what you can find. Abandoned tires, man, what a mess they
cause... Wildcat dumping is still rampant, and I'm not talking just
about the huge problem of smugglers leaving acres of crap at transfer
points.
So folks really should think before they leave their trash the "vast
empty desert". They should ask themselves, "would I dispose of this
in my back yard or dump it on my living room floor?". Pack it in and
pack it out. It's not hard concept, but how many times have you taken
someone out and watched them throw stuff down?... And if you stake a
claim, don't use hollow pipes to mark it, even if it's a legal method.
I will not. o(:?-D
Happy hunting,
Mark
From: "wahlperry at aol.com" <wahlperry at aol.com>
To: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com; mexicodoug at aim.com;
minador at yahoo.com
Sent: Saturday, February 18, 2012 9:51 AM
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Fw: PVC death trap
Hi Doug, Mark and List,
First thanks for all the great replies. I want to point out that I am
NOT anti- mining. I have been a lifelong Nevada resident and I believe
that mining and wildlife can co-exist in our State. My main purpose was
to increase public awareness of this problem. I was saddened by what I
found in the PVC marker and would like to see the problem cease. I
believe many of these tragic deaths( if not all) can be avoided. Over
the years while exploring the deserts of the
Southwest I have crossed paths with many of the PVC markers. Some of
the valleys are covered with markers as far as the eye can see. Many of
the claims are long forgotten and the only reminder are the broken
markers littering the
Desert floor. In fact our State Bird the mountain bluebird has
frequently fallen victim to these pipes.
Here is a link to an article. PVC pipes trapping, killing birds by the
thousands "A troubling find was that "about half of those markers that
HAD PROTECTIVE CAPS put in place at some earlier point in time, now
had those caps DISPLACED, on the ground nearby," said state biologist
Christy Klinger. "So the hazard from the pipe became
re-established."Here is a link to the article.
http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2011/11/22/8955697-pvc-pipes-trapping-
killing-birds-by-the-thousands
Sorry for the incomplete post. I have a meteorite hunting trip planned
today with a small army of PETA types to spread out into the desert
knocking over snd deatroying other peoplesproperty markers and
hopefully find a few meteorites. : )
Sonny
-----Original Message-----
From: MexicoDoug <mexicodoug at aim.com>
To: minador <minador at yahoo.com>; meteorite-list
<meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
Sent: Fri, Feb 17, 2012 11:11 pm
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Fw: PVC death trap
Hi Mark, everyone,It's too bad society needs rules but with so many
humans overrrunning the wilderness, the best way to deal with it is
work on a responsible collecting/mining/4-wheeling/detecting/etc.
personal policy and showcase it for all to see - just like Sonny - then
regulations are not zealously pursued and the offended find other
causes more urgently in need and leave us alone.I hear you, but just
like everything we seem to get involved in that is outdoors, a few bad
apples can spoil it for the 90%+ of people who really are law abidng
common sense toting individuals and that is where the regulators are
forced to move, and in this case people that don't clean up after
themselfs, maybe because they died, or some other possibly easily
understandable reason.There are always people with different priorities
and I agree a bird zealot may seem over the top for a meteorite
hunter. But then again, a miner might not appreciate someone snooping
over the above grounds rights of a meteorite hunter and if enough
meteorite hunters are in areas with mining claims with enough rotten
apples acting suspiciously in a place like Gold Basin for example, the
PETA bird zealot becomes the miner and the meteorite hunter suffers.Who
said, "common sense is not so common". It's been that way since I was
a kid metal detecting. Even going back to the 1960's Handbook of metal
detectors (the only outdated book on detectors I found as a 9-year old
in the library, the advice is "cover your holes!" same principle, same
danger, different day ;-) Look at the bright side of things. It won't
give the bird an opportunity to evolve into building human tube traps
that at night, lost meteorite hunters who are so cold that they scamper
in them for the crucial welcomed cover thanking their instincts and
happily fall asleep a little cold, but not frozen, only to wake up in
the warming sun to find themselves inside a tomb which allows them to
see the sky but is to slippery to lift themselves out no matter how
much they beat themselves against the solitary confinement, all they
while slowly getting cooked alive in a roman style birdmade oven, until
their shreiks of nervous terror are extinguished by overheating bodies
and a sudden onset of a peaceful dehydration.Kindest
wsiehsDoug-----Original Message-----From: Mark Bowling
<minador at yahoo.com>To: Count Deiro <countdeiro at earthlink.net>; cetuspa
<cetuspa at shaw.ca>; meteorite-list
<meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>Sent: Sat, Feb 18, 2012 1:14
amSubject: Re: [meteorite-list] Fw: PVC death trapHi Count,They made it
illegal to put up uncapped markers, but because nobody did anythingwith
the old, markers that define mostly defunct claims (which should have
beenan obvious outcome), they made all PVC markers illegal. I think
they should still allow pipe to be used (PVC or otherwise), but that
itmust be capped. And they can still allow people to remove (but leave
in place)any uncapped markers (because they are important boundary
markers). I think ablanket outlawing of any use of PVC as a marker is
an over reaction. There is astrong anti-mining movement, and it is sad
to give them the excuse to removeresponsible capped pipes, just because
the pipe is PVC and they don't likeminers. I think a common sense
should be applied. Happy
hunting,Mark________________________________From: Count Deiro
<countdeiro at earthlink.net>To: cetuspa at shaw.ca;
meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.comSent: Friday, February 17, 2012 9:51
PMSubject: [meteorite-list] Fw: PVC death trapHi List and nature lovers
in general,Mining provides Nevada with the second largest contribution
to our State'seconomy in terms of jobs and money. The finding of ore
bodies and the stakingand recording of those claims is a necessity. The
use of white Schedule 40 PVCpipes evolved from first using Prince
Albert tobacco tins to be the mostefficient and economical way of
marking a claim.Everybody I know likes birds. They look at them. They
take pictures of them.They paint them, they count them, keep them as
pets... and they even hunt andeat them. They are a necessity of life
certainly.So, do we have to pass a state mining regulation requiring
placing a $1.49 pvccap on the pipe with a couple of taps of a hammer,
or a swab of pvc glue andsave the little birdies? Or is it better to
marshal a small army of PETA typesto spread out into the desert
knocking over snd deatroying other peoplesproperty markers?Jesus must
weep with the stupidity.Count DeiroIMCA 3536-----Forwarded
Message----->From: Paul Gessler <>>Sent: Feb 17, 2012 8:06 PM>To:
meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>Subject: [meteorite-list] PVC death
trap>>That is truly one of the most amazing things I have heard.>I see
those all the time hunting meteorites and never thought>much of them
except that I noticed they disintegrate fast in the sun.>Obviously not
fast enough for these birds. Thank you very much for>posting this and I
too will leave none standing when I come across>them in the future.
What kind of birds were they? 14 is just sadly>incredible!>>Paul
Gessler>>______________________________________________>>Visit the
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