[meteorite-list] Pojoaque Pallisite

Sun Apr 29 19:57:19 EDT 2012

" the meteorite had been carried in a medicine bag? It doesn't sound 
implausible, but what are the clues?"

Hi, Regine, Carleton, Mike, Bernd, Jeff, David, Listers;

I would like to draw some attention to the "carried in a medicine 
pouch" since Regine asked ;-)

These guys are all with the Great Spirit now, who did the excavations, 
so we're stuck analyzing something that was contermplated in the 1920's 
with the baggage of nearly an intervening century.

It is quite possible, like many things, that this medicine pouch 
comment is a comment run amok as usual with meteorites, someone says 
something, then it takes on a life of its own due to tales getting 
taller,even among conservative scientists, unintentionally, of course, 
everyone just takes away a different idea and they follow natural 
'election'.

The original comment seems to be that it was carried as "medicine", 
rather than in a medicine pouch.  While this seems to be a minor 
difference, it's not.  One involves an inference and the other is more 
of an observation.

Nininger later (1952) expounds on the comment when discussing Native 
American meteorite collectors and the medicine pounch has by then 
become alive in its own, through no one's fault.

The concept of "medicine" doesn't necessarily require a pouch, and may 
not even be in the hands of a medicine man, why, it just as well could 
have been a chief, or a brave warrior ... and could just as well be 
 from a great deal of handling.  The observation was simply that at 
least three of the protuberances above the regmaglypts depressions were 
highly worn from what was very plausibly a soft material.  To make the 
leap to call it a pouch, or just a lot of hands ... is a good 
philosophical theme for a room full of meteorite collectors and 
archeaologists without Regine's magic powder burns evidence.  But the 
fact was, the wear was supposedly caused from a lot of handling or 
rubbing.  That said, ablation is a strange master and it would be 
verrrrry interesting to revisit this "wear" which formed the basis of 
the original archaeological comments.

What is for sure, apparently is that it was found inside the pottery 
and that in turn in a burial ground.  So there are some Spirits 
floating around it.  Perhaps Man & Impact Ed has a theory, it's his 
ballywick.  But we do need to see it.  Carleton kindly mentions that a 
couple of grams were at ASU, that makes sense that Nininger would take 
some.  My fear is that calling this pivotal iron "just" another synonym 
does no good to science if it is lost for inspection.  Apparently the 
piece weighed originally 3 ounces (about 85 g), and it was a complete 
individual subject to what was speculated to be a violent history, that 
is, after Nininger figured out how Glorieta ripped apart along of 
course with Kunz.

But not only is the mystery with the original piece, this piece is 
historical in that it was the first specimen that was used as a 
keystone to pair a pallasite fall to a siderite fall ... and help 
create the need to have a single name with synonyms ... how ironic, 
errr... palladoxical ;-)

Kindest wishes
Doug

-----Original Message-----
From: Regine P. <fips_bruno at yahoo.de>
To: MexicoDoug <mexicodoug at aim.com>; bernd.pauli 
<bernd.pauli at paulinet.de>; meteorite-list 
<meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
Sent: Sun, Apr 29, 2012 7:04 pm
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Pojoaque Pallisite

Hi Doug, Bernd and all,

I too would like to know where this one is being kept. What baffles me 
though,
how does one get to the conclusion the meteorite had been carried in a 
medicine
bag? It doesn't sound implausible, but what are the clues? Magic powder 
topping?
Is there any further info?

Regine

----- Ursprüngliche Message -----
> Von: MexicoDoug <mexicodoug at aim.com>
> An: bernd.pauli at paulinet.de; meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com
> CC:
> Gesendet: 23:54 Sonntag, 29.April 2012
> Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] Pojoaque Pallisite
>
> Hi Listers,
>
> Paired - quite likely - It has a much more interesting history than 
to be
lumped
> as a synonym and IMO value as a named iron in its own right:
>
> This particular iron showed a lot of evidence of wear from human 
handling and
> Nininger supported Mera's suggestion that it was carried in a 
medicine pouch
> in Pojoaque, which makes a triangle geographically, roughly, with 
Santa Fe,
> Glorieta, Mountain locality and Pojoaque pueble.  According to the
circumstances
> of the fine, it was found inside some old pottery during excavations 
at the
> Pueblo, i.e., protected, and exhibited beautiful flow lines and 
notable bluish

> fresh fusion crust, indicating it was a reasonable possibility that 
whoever
> found it saw it fall.  As it was found during excavations, it raises 
the
> possibility of using this to date the Glorieta Mountain fall.
>
> It would be nice to know where this meteorite is now.  Did it make it 
to New
> Mexico's collection?  Nininger, in 1931, saw it in Santa Fe, 
specifically in
> the "Department of Anthropology", where Mera may have been working. 
> But someone else needs to sleuth a bit further from here because I 
sure
> don't know where it is now, and it would be great to see it in its 
present
> condition ;-), as it was cut up a bit because Nininger and others 
used it to
> argue that Glorieta Mountain wasn't a siderite, but a 
sidero-pallasite
> combination as well as consolidate some of the names Bernd lists ... 
I think
the
> paper was 1940.
>
> Definitely a specimen with a very special, if not sacred, history ...
>
> Kindest wishes
> Doug
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Bernd V. Pauli <bernd.pauli at paulinet.de>
> To: meteorite-list <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
> Sent: Sun, Apr 29, 2012 5:03 pm
> Subject: [meteorite-list] Pojoaque Pallisite
>
>
> Hello Jeff, Mike, David and List,
>
> David wrote: "It is indeed the synonym for Glorieta"
>
> ... and only one out of several others:
>
> Albuquerque
> Canoncito
> Glorieta
> Pojoaque
> Rio Arriba
> Santa Fe
> Santa Fe County
> Trinity County
>
> Cheers,
>
> Bernd
>
>
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