[meteorite-list] POP QUIZ ANSWER

Tue Sep 20 02:45:48 EDT 2011

Doug and Lister,

It’s clear that you haven’t read the first post completely and I see your changing your answer to 1802 from 186? something. What’s next, you’re going to agree with me :). 

At any rate, I’ll have to repeat myself again and maybe this time you will see.....

QUOTED from 

Ernst Florens Friedrich Chladni (1756–1827) and the origins 
of modern meteorite research 

by 

Ursula B. MARVIN 

Marvin STATES as follows

"Benares, India, 1798 

"A dazzling ball of fire exploded across a serene evening 
sky near Benares, India, at 8 P.M. on December 19, 1798, 
heralding a large shower of stones. Early in 1799, Sir Joseph 
Banks in London received a letter from John Lloyd Williams 
(about 1765–1838) in India describing the fireball and the 
appearance of the stones. All of them, he said, had hard black 
crusts like varnish or bitumen and whitish, gritty interiors 
with many small spherical bodies interspersed with bright 
shining grains of metal or pyrite. Williams (in Howard 1802: 
179) concluded:"

Now again, you Sir Banks is a key player and had received this letter in 1799 well before 1802 from Williams. And if you have read Howards report you would also know that the Benares meteorite was the key meteorite in that report and which was most talked about concerning small spherical bodies aka chondrules of any know meteorite at that time. Here is a quote from Howards report...

"The stones which fell at Benares, are those of which the
mineralogical characters are the most striking". If you go and read the whole report which I did, you will find the it was the Benares that had the perfect examples of spherical bodies aka chondrules which at that time the word wasn’t coined till 1869 by Gustav Rose which also can be found in Ernst Florens Friedrich Chladni (1756–1827) and the origins of modern meteorite research by Ursula B. MARVIN on page 34.

Now your argument now is based on publication well my pop quiz question isn’t about publication, mine is on chondrules and it seems that Eremeeva, A. I. that wrote Two forgotten pioneers of meteoritics - The discoverers of chondrules and etching figures in meteorites, feels the same way on who discovered chondrules first. Here is an abstract that states "A survey of the historical data shows that chondrules were discovered by John Lloyd Williams in 1799, as a result of the study of the Benares meteorite." 

source http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/1988KIzND......104E 

If you like to read another source that talks about Williams letter here is another link that would be good to look at......

http://books.google.com/books?id=UPg3AQAAIAAJ&pg=PA255&lpg=PA255&dq=John+Lloyd+Williams+in+1799+meteorite&source=bl&ots=7IH2AqE9lt&sig=9kdVFN4BhBwOMmk_T0bQxpuqcbU&hl=en&ei=e8RzTteyEsnw0gGsgrnwDQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CB4Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false

And on last thing to add

This is the conclusion on Howards report........

"It will appear, from a collected view of the preceding pages
and authorities, that a number of stones asserted to have fallen
under similar circumstances, have precisely the same characters.
The stones from Benares, the stone from Yorkshire, that from
Sienna, and a fragment of one from Bohemia, have a relation to
each other not to be questioned.

1st. They have all pyrites of a peculiar character.
sdly. They have all a coating of black oxide of iron,
gdly. They all contain an alloy of iron and nickel. And,
4th!yc The earths which serve to them as a sort of connecting
medium, correspond in their nature, and nearly in their
proportions.

Moreover, in the stones from Benares, pyrites and globular
bodies are exceedingly distinct. In the others they are more or
less definite ; and that from Sienna had one of its globules transparent.
Meteors, or lightning, attended the descent of the stones
at Benares, and at Sienna. Such coincidence of circumstances,
and the unquestionable authorities I have adduced, must, I
imagine, remove all doubt as to the descent of these stony
substances ; for, to disbelieve on the mere ground of incomprehensibility,
would be to dispute most of the works of nature."

Shawn Alan 
IMCA 1633 
eBaystore 
http://shop.ebay.com/photophlow/m.html 

[meteorite-list] POP QUIZ ANSWER
Shawn Alan photophlow at yahoo.com 
Mon Sep 19 16:17:40 EDT 2011 

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Hello Listers 

I would like to thank everyone that submitted their answers for this weeks POP QUIZ FRIDAYS. 

Question 

In what year were chondrules first discovered in aerolites aka meteorites? 

Answer 

1799 

I am sorry but no one got the question right. But all hope is not lost cause there is still a winner. All the people that sent in their answer sent in 1802( even the best of the best sent in this answer and I spoke with some people and suggested I make a winner from the 10th incorrect answers cause it was so close). Good guess, I would have to say that was the year that was the first publication that first talked about spherical granulated substances found in aerolites(meteorites), but was not when they were first observed. 

In 

Ernst Florens Friedrich Chladni (1756–1827) and the origins 
of modern meteorite research 

by 

Ursula B. MARVIN 

Marvin points out the first incident a scientist first observed these chondrules in a meteorite..... 

Benares, India, 1798 

"A dazzling ball of fire exploded across a serene evening 
sky near Benares, India, at 8 P.M. on December 19, 1798, 
heralding a large shower of stones. Early in 1799, Sir Joseph 
Banks in London received a letter from John Lloyd Williams 
(about 1765–1838) in India describing the fireball and the 
appearance of the stones. All of them, he said, had hard black 
crusts like varnish or bitumen and whitish, gritty interiors 
with many small spherical bodies interspersed with bright 
shining grains of metal or pyrite. Williams (in Howard 1802: 
179) concluded: 

I shall only observe, that it is well known there are no 
volcanoes on the continent of India; and, as far as I can 
learn, no stones have been met with in the earth, in that 
part of the world, which bear the smallest resemblance to 
those above described. 

On reading the letter, Sir Joseph was struck by the 
apparent similarities between the Benares stones and the 
samples he had obtained from the falls at Siena and Wold 
Cottage. Judging that it was time for serious scientific 
investigations, he handed his two samples to the 
accomplished young chemist, Edward C. Howard (1774– 
1816) and asked him to analyze them. In December 1800, 
Banks presented the Copley Medal, the Royal Society’s 
highest honor, to Howard for his discovery of the fulminate of 
mercury. In his presentation speech, Banks made it clear that 
he believed a new field of research was opening (Sears 1975: 
218): 

Mr. Howard . . . is now employed in the analysis of certain 
stones, generations in the air by fiery meteors, the 
component parts of which will probably open a new field 
of speculation and discussion to mineralogists as well as to 
meteorologists." 

source 
http://adsabs.harvard.edu/full/1996M%26PS...31..545M 
PAGE 30 

Here is another account of Williams work with the Benares fall and 
observations........ 

"At length, in 1799, an account of stones fallen in the East Indies was sent to the president, by John Lloyd Williams, Esq. which, by its unquestionable authenticity, and by the striking resemblance it bears to other accounts of fallen stones, mult remove all prejudice. Mr. Williams has since drawn up the following more detailed narrative of facts. 
Account of the Explosion of a Meteor, near Benares, in the East Explosion of a 
Indies; and of the falling of some Stones at the fame Time, me^°r ""t^" 
about 14 Miles from lluii City. By John Lloyd Williams, falling of tome 
Esq. F. R. S. stones «the 
fame time. 
A circumstance of so extraordinary a nature as the fall of stones from the heavens, could not fail to excite the wonder, and attract the attention of every inquisitive mind. 
Among a superstitious people, any preternatural appearance is viewed with silent awe and reverence; attributing the causes to the will of the Supreme Being, they do not presume to judge the means by which they were produced, nor the purposes for which they were ordered; and we are naturally led to suspect the influence of prejudice and superstition, in their descriptions of such phenomena; my inquiries were therefore chiefly directed to the Europeans, who were but thinly dispersed about that part of the country. 
The information I obtained was, that on the i 9th of De- Narrative, cember, 179S, about eight o'clock in the evening, a very luminous meteor was observed in the heavens, by the inhabitants of Benares and the parts adjacent, in the form of a large ball LarEe ta" of 
- ,. , . , , , , , , ,. fire with noise 
Oi fire; that it was accompanied by a loud noile, reiembling thumbs. 
thunder; and that a number of stones were said to have fallen 
from it, near Krakhut, a village on the north side of the river 
Goomty, about 14 miles from the city of Benares. 
The meteor appeared in the western part of the hemisphere, 
and was but a short time visible: it was observed by several 
Europeans, as well as natives, in different parts of the country" 

http://books.google.com/books?id=UPg3AQAAIAAJ&pg=PA255&lpg=PA255&dq=John+Lloyd+Williams+in+1799+meteorite&source=bl&ots=7IH2AqE9lt&sig=9kdVFN4BhBwOMmk_T0bQxpuqcbU&hl=en&ei=e8RzTteyEsnw0gGsgrnwDQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CB4Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false 

And one last link to confirm Willimas role.... 

 http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/1988KIzND......104E 

But I would like to add it wasnt till 1869 that the word chondrules was coined  by Gustav Rose. 

Again I would like to thank everyone that sent in their answers and would like to announce the 10th Lister that sent in the incorrect answer which was 1802 and that Lister is Gabriel G. They will win a free micro grain of the Sylacauga meteorite fall where this stone comes from the Smithsonian collection. 

Thank you 
Shawn Alan 
IMCA 1633 
eBaystore 
http://shop.ebay.com/photophlow/m.html 

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