[meteorite-list] POP QUIZ ANSWER

Mon Sep 19 20:04:23 EDT 2011

Shawn wrote, refering to the application of the word "chondrule":

"But I would like to add it wasnt till 1869 that the word chondrules 
was coined by Gustav Rose."

This is an error, Shawn.

It was alledgedly 1863.  And in 1864, we had the first observation by a 
"scientist" of a chondrule, who invented the microscope for thin 
sections and made true scientific observation on meteorites.  That is 
why the answer should be 1864.  This is the period that a better 
understand was achieved that the granules we now call chondrules were 
distinguished petrologically as we do today (just look at the 
publications of science vs. layterms today when researching chondrules).

While other scientists may have mentioned spherical or granulated 
things and made various comments relating to them, specific or no so 
much so, that is not a clear scientific leap by any means regarding 
chrondrules in my opinion. When I am in strewn fields working with 
peasants, they are quite sharp at recognizing chondrules in many cases, 
and without anyone pointing them out to them.  So I would hardly credit 
your reference with anything of value except anectotal.  Once you find 
a not too cooked chondrite, it's as obvious as pointing out that a face 
has a nose and eyes.

Shawn wrote:

"Marvin points out the first incident a scientist first observed these 
chondrules in a meteorite....."

Does she "point this out" and suggest it was the first incidence of 
observed chondrules? Or does she mention "an" incident?

It is foolish to ascribe too much significance to the indirect 
reference you happened to find IMO.

No time to go through your document link, but I suspect you are making 
a biased interpretation of this passing comment because you already 
know something the original investigators were clueless about.  While 
it has the word "spherical", it is hard for me to believe that this was 
the first reference though it is very clear.  The common knowledge 
before that was a sandstone appearance; and prior to your reference 
year, granules were defnitely pointed out.  I think the jury is still 
out on this one, since it would require a complete collation in all 
languages to determine who said what and when, rather than make such a 
sweeping statement without giving Troili (1766) and others more credit 
in a level context.

Kindest wishes, and of course, (kindest opinions may differ)
Doug

-----Original Message-----
From: Shawn Alan <photophlow at yahoo.com>
To: meteorite-list <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
Sent: Mon, Sep 19, 2011 4:17 pm
Subject: [meteorite-list] POP QUIZ ANSWER

Hello Listers

I would like to thank everyone that submitted their answers for this 
weeks POP
QUIZ FRIDAYS.

Question

In what year were chondrules first discovered in aerolites aka 
meteorites?

Answer

1799

I am sorry but no one got the question right. But all hope is not lost 
cause
there is still a winner. All the people that sent in their answer sent 
in 1802(
even the best of the best sent in this answer and I spoke with some 
people and
suggested I make a winner from the 10th incorrect answers cause it was 
so
close). Good guess, I would have to say that was the year that was the 
first
publication that first talked about spherical granulated substances 
found in
aerolites(meteorites), but was not when they were first observed.

In

Ernst Florens Friedrich Chladni (1756–1827) and the origins
of modern meteorite research

by

Ursula B. MARVIN

Marvin points out the first incident a scientist first observed these 
chondrules
in a meteorite.....

Benares, India, 1798

"A dazzling ball of fire exploded across a serene evening
sky near Benares, India, at 8 P.M. on December 19, 1798,
heralding a large shower of stones. Early in 1799, Sir Joseph
Banks in London received a letter from John Lloyd Williams
(about 1765–1838) in India describing the fireball and the
appearance of the stones. All of them, he said, had hard black
crusts like varnish or bitumen and whitish, gritty interiors
with many small spherical bodies interspersed with bright
shining grains of metal or pyrite. Williams (in Howard 1802:
179) concluded:

I shall only observe, that it is well known there are no
volcanoes on the continent of India; and, as far as I can
learn, no stones have been met with in the earth, in that
part of the world, which bear the smallest resemblance to
those above described.

On reading the letter, Sir Joseph was struck by the
apparent similarities between the Benares stones and the
samples he had obtained from the falls at Siena and Wold
Cottage. Judging that it was time for serious scientific
investigations, he handed his two samples to the
accomplished young chemist, Edward C. Howard (1774–
1816) and asked him to analyze them. In December 1800,
Banks presented the Copley Medal, the Royal Society’s
highest honor, to Howard for his discovery of the fulminate of
mercury. In his presentation speech, Banks made it clear that
he believed a new field of research was opening (Sears 1975:
218):

Mr. Howard . . . is now employed in the analysis of certain
stones, generations in the air by fiery meteors, the
component parts of which will probably open a new field
of speculation and discussion to mineralogists as well as to
meteorologists."

source
http://adsabs.harvard.edu/full/1996M%26PS...31..545M
PAGE 30

Here is another account of Williams work with the Benares fall and
observations........

"At length, in 1799, an account of stones fallen in the East Indies was 
sent to
the president, by John Lloyd Williams, Esq. which, by its 
unquestionable
authenticity, and by the striking resemblance it bears to other 
accounts of
fallen stones, mult remove all prejudice. Mr. Williams has since drawn 
up the
following more detailed narrative of facts.
Account of the Explosion of a Meteor, near Benares, in the East 
Explosion of a
Indies; and of the falling of some Stones at the fame Time, me^°r ""t^"
about 14 Miles from lluii City. By John Lloyd Williams, falling of tome
Esq. F. R. S. stones «the
fame time.
A circumstance of so extraordinary a nature as the fall of stones from 
the
heavens, could not fail to excite the wonder, and attract the attention 
of every
inquisitive mind.
Among a superstitious people, any preternatural appearance is viewed 
with silent
awe and reverence; attributing the causes to the will of the Supreme 
Being, they
do not presume to judge the means by which they were produced, nor the 
purposes
for which they were ordered; and we are naturally led to suspect the 
influence
of prejudice and superstition, in their descriptions of such phenomena; 
my
inquiries were therefore chiefly directed to the Europeans, who were 
but thinly
dispersed about that part of the country.
The information I obtained was, that on the i 9th of De- Narrative, 
cember,
179S, about eight o'clock in the evening, a very luminous meteor was 
observed in
the heavens, by the inhabitants of Benares and the parts adjacent, in 
the form
of a large ball LarEe ta" of
- ,. , . , , , , , , ,. fire with noise
Oi fire; that it was accompanied by a loud noile, reiembling thumbs.
thunder; and that a number of stones were said to have fallen
from it, near Krakhut, a village on the north side of the river
Goomty, about 14 miles from the city of Benares.
The meteor appeared in the western part of the hemisphere,
and was but a short time visible: it was observed by several
Europeans, as well as natives, in different parts of the country"

http://books.google.com/books?id=UPg3AQAAIAAJ&pg=PA255&lpg=PA255&dq=John+Lloyd+Williams+in+1799+meteorite&source=bl&ots=7IH2AqE9lt&sig=9kdVFN4BhBwOMmk_T0bQxpuqcbU&hl=en&ei=e8RzTteyEsnw0gGsgrnwDQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CB4Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false

And one last link to confirm Willimas role....

 http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/1988KIzND......104E

But I would like to add it wasnt till 1869 that the word chondrules was 
coined 
by Gustav Rose.

Again I would like to thank everyone that sent in their answers and 
would like
to announce the 10th Lister that sent in the incorrect answer which was 
1802 and
that Lister is Gabriel G. They will win a free micro grain of the 
Sylacauga
meteorite fall where this stone comes from the Smithsonian collection.

Thank you
Shawn Alan
IMCA 1633
eBaystore
http://shop.ebay.com/photophlow/m.html

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