[meteorite-list] AD(?) - Sikhote-Alin in tree

Wed Jan 12 21:50:08 EST 2011

G'Day Anne, Dr. Vann, Dr. Ted and List
I have to double that wow. I too have learned a lot today. I'm truly
impressed. I'll be looking at trees now with a different perspective.

Cheers
John
IMCA # 2125

-----Original Message-----
From: meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com
[mailto:meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com] On Behalf Of
Impactika at aol.com
Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2011 5:04 PM
To: drvann at sas.upenn.edu; meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] AD(?) - Sikhote-Alin in tree

WOW!

Thank you Dr. Vann, Dr. Ted, Dolores, everybody, for all the great
posts!
I have learned a lot about trees today!    ;-)

Dr Vann, if I was a little closer to Philadelphia, I would be driving
right 
over to show it to you. Your analysis and interpretation is amazing, and

very helpful. If more pictures could help in any way just say so, I
would be 
delighted to send you some close-ups. And just in case, I posted this
one to 
my site:
_http://www.impactika.com/images/satree2.jpg_ 
(http://www.impactika.com/images/satree2.jpg)  
Please do let me know what you see there.
Thank you very much.

And for everybody else, and since some did ask, here is a picture of the

two Sikhote-Alins from the Vernadsky Institute:
_http://www.impactika.com/images/satree2.jpg_ 
(http://www.impactika.com/images/satree2.jpg) 
Enjoy.
And again, Thanks everybody!

Anne M. Black
_http://www.impactika.com/_ (http://www.impactika.com/) 
_IMPACTIKA at aol.com_ (mailto:IMPACTIKA at aol.com) 
President, I.M.C.A. Inc.
_http://www.imca.cc/_ (http://www.imca.cc/) 

In a message dated 1/12/2011 2:09:16 PM Mountain Standard Time, 
drvann at sas.upenn.edu writes:
I would like to add that the picture, as I interpret it, is a tree
*stump*. 
It
is upside-down in Anne's picture. The 'branches' are departing the trunk
in 
the
pattern typical of roots. The age of the tree would be determined based
on 
the
rings in the piece laying on the table. It appears to me that the tree
grew around the SA piece as it lay buried, consequently an age less than
or near 
to
the SA would be expected. There seems to be very little to no disruption
(shattering) of the wood that I can see -only bending as one might see
in a 
root
growing around a rock. Thus, this may have been a fragment that hit
soil, followed by enclosure in the growing tree. If you invert the photo
(it will 
look
more like a tree trunk), the placement of the fragment is below the main

trunk.
A moving piece would have come in on a very low angle to penetrate the
tree 
in
the *apparent* manner. Additionally, I would expect the oxidation
patterns 
for
meteorites that imbedded in wood to be different from that in soil (not 
possible
to evaluate in a photo). At least, there should be iron staining or 
increased
iron in the wood after impact due to natural organic acids in the tree
sap 
as it
repaired the wound. Conversely, a piece in the soil would be enclosed by

roots
similar to way they would enclose rock, and the root would have bark 
covering
the wood at the interface with the fragment at all times, so there would
be 
no
iron staining.
Interpretation is complicated by the fact that a second tree (probably a

second
trunk of the main tree) has grown roots that are interlaced with those
of 
the
larger trunk. If you invert the photo, the pear-shaped form on the right

(with a
circle in the center) is the remnants of the second trunk, which died
and 
fell
away from the tree years ago. The two yellowish ovals are two roots that

were
cut to fell the tree or after felling to better show the fragment. The 
pinkish
area around the fragment is a larger root (that was plunging into the
soil) 
that
was split when the tree was uprooted. This split revealed the fragment.
The split root shows a rotted, hollow area toward the right, which when
combined with the cluster of three smaller roots (under the yellow
ovals), provided a weak point for the split to begin. There is a
crescent-shaped area of bark departing the fragment; this is the
fusion/grafting line between the two 
large
roots that are in the lower left of the (inverted) photo. This provides 
another
point of weakness.
I would love to see this in life, for a better evaluation, but am afraid

that I
cannot make the Tucson show. Someday perhaps.

David R. Vann, Ph.D.
Forest Biogeochemistry and Physiology
Department of Earth and Environmental Science
THE UNIVERSITY of PENNSYLVANIA
240 S. 33rd St.
Philadelphia, PA 19104-6316
drvann at sas.upenn.edu
office: 215-898-4906
FAX: 215-898-0964

| -----Original Message-----
| From: meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com
| [mailto:meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com] On 
| Behalf Of Dolores Hill
| Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2011 1:54 PM
| To: John Birdsell
| Cc: Impactika at aol.com; meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com
| Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] AD(?) - Sikhote-Alin in tree
| 
| 
| Dear meteorite-list,
| 
| I cannot resist commenting on this issue.  I have studied
| dendrochronology and I am very familiar with the UA Tree-Ring Lab 
| (LTRR).  It is much more complicated than one might realize.  In 
| addition to "number of tree-rings/years," the growth _/pattern/_ is 
| extremely important in cross-dating a tree sample according to a 
| particular regional "chronology."  Depending on the species and/or 
| environmental conditions, there may even be "missing rings or double 
| rings."  The number of rings also depends on when the tree 
| first started 
| growing and when it died (naturally or was cut down) or was 
| sampled by 
| increment core. 
| 
| I have seen fascinating photos of supposed Sikhote-Alin
| meteorites stuck 
| in trees and invited the owners to allow LTRR experts to 
| examine them.  
| So far the owners seem to get cold feet.  LTRR has scientists and 
| visiting researchers who have first-hand experience with 
| Russian trees 
| and forests.  They are happy to provide assistance: 
| http://ltrr.arizona.edu/         If authentic, the samples might aid 
| studies of biological effects of meteorite impacts.  It would 
| be best if 
| the original location of the tree is known; another case for careful 
| documentation.
| 
| Regards,
| Dolores Hill
| Lunar & Planetary Laboratory
| University of Arizona
| 
| 
| John Birdsell wrote:
| > Hi Ted....good point. If a tree branch was collected many,
| many years
| > ago, it
| > could have fewer growth rings, and might also be expected
| to show some signs of
| > its age.
| >
| >
| > -J
| >
| > I have seen three specimens that exceed 80 years and
| several that are
| > too
| > young, so be careful. A Russian dealer friend of mine says
| that all of the
| > genuine specimens were gathered years ago, but some may
| have been kept for
| > future sale as we know the Arab dealers do with meteorites.
| >
| > Be careful out there.
| >
| > Ted Bunch
| >

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