[meteorite-list] Firearms related posts on a meteorite list

Thu Feb 4 00:13:44 EST 2010

Robert, All,

> I spent three years training at the finest firearms institution on the
> planet learning about every aspect of the industry, and even designing
> and manufacturing my own firearms models, I am an expert in the field,
> and I assure you they are not "killing tools" and "assault rifles"
> when they leave the factory.

Well, they're not toys and they're not meant to defend against
anything - at least, anything other than someone else with a gun.  And
they're not used for anything else, really...though I suppose you
could use one as a hammer if the situation called for it.
So, killing tools.  Yeah.  You don't eat off them, you don't really do
anything constructive with them....they kill.
That's about it.

Hell, by your logic, a hammer isn't a building tool.  It's....well, if
I look at what you write below, it's just a piece of metal and
wood/plastic.  And a car isn't a transportation vehicle -
it's....metal, plastic, glass, and rubber.

Kind of a crappy semantics argument.

> They are pieces of metal and plastic,

Piece of metal and plastic that, with the push of a button, can end
someone's life.  Granted, as you say, a machete would also suffice,
but I don't think we had too many machete deaths here in the US last
year, though there are a great many machetes.  You're simply ignoring
the fact that guns make it easier to kill someone, and that's a fact
that's clearly reflected in crime statistics.

> People do the killing, guns are inanimate objects.

Right, but standing in front of someone, squeezing your finger, and
shouting "bang!" is hardly going to get the job done.  Of course,
knives/machetes would also suffice, but, I'll say it again: it's
easier to pull a trigger at someone from ten feet away than it is to
slide a knife between their ribs while they try to fight you off.
Of course, if you're just using the "inanimate object" line, we can
throw all sorts of things into the mix - nuclear bombs, grenades,
ballistic missiles, etc.  All inanimate.  You seem to be saying that
the fact that they're inanimate means that people should be allowed to
have them because they cause no innate harm.  Following that logic,
you should have no problem with everyone having their own backyard
nuke.  But for some reason that seems ridiculous...I don't understand
it.  Somehow a great many people have decided that owning devices
whose sole purpose is to kill is actually an innocent endeavor -- to a
point.  When the objects' ability to kill more than ~10-20 people with
the push of a button, we stop and say that it's too dangerous.
Apparently guns aren't *quite* dangerous enough.
It doesn't make any sense.
And while the suggestion that everyone have their own nuke may seem
preposterous on the surface, it has some merit - they, too, are
inanimate objects whose sole purpose is to kill.  For some reason we
as a population have decided that there's some arbitrary limit to the
amount of killing power we want to leave in the hands of the average
citizen; assault rifles, yes, and maybe even the odd grenade, but
beyond that...it's prohibited.
>From an absolute standpoint, this makes no sense.  If you're not going
to need to shoot someone or something, you shouldn't have a gun.  We
give them to soldiers for a reason.  And there's a reason we don't
give the average soldier a nuke.
But soldiers are trained, generally don't carry their guns in public
(at least in the US), and are, for the most part, psychologically
screened.
Though the odd nut does get through.
Of course, what you're really saying is that guns are merely innocent
bystanders to crimes in which they're used.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,572305,00.html

So this is where I'll post a link - and I know it happens more often
in schools than in army bases, but, it still illustrates a point.
This one man, with the aid of a gun, was able to kill 12 people and
injure 31 others.  While he may have been able to do as much with a
machete or a knife...I doubt it.  At the very least, you can run away
from a man with a knife.  It's hard to outrun a bullet.

> So Mr. G, I have
> been involved with firearms my entire life, ask my friends if they
> think I am a morbid person.

Anything but - but I'd have to say that you value the thrill of owning
a weapon more than you value the increased risk of your being murdered
in this country because of them.  And that's fine, but you're going to
have to understand that some people here disagree with you.

> You say we should not offend our European
> friends with our rights and traditions?

Well, using the word "right" here introduces a great deal of
ambiguity.  You could be referring to a legal or moral right, which
are very different from each other.  One suggests that we're all
entitled to own guns, and the other suggests that American law
dictates that we can own guns, regardless of whether it is "right" or
"wrong."  One is indisputable, and the other is highly questionable.
Of course, justifying something by saying that it's a tradition isn't
that good of an argument; slavery used to be a good-old American
tradition, as were many other practices we now consider to be
outdated, polygamy among them, depending on where you're from (some
places in Arizona approve).

> Growing up I spent my summers
> in Africa, and I saw things that offended my that are far to morbid to
> mention here, I did not offend them by sharing my thoughts of these
> customs, I looked the other way and left, if that pic offends you push
> delete.

This is such a strange analogy that I really don't know what to make
of it.  You're comparing the fact that people here dislike guns
because of the higher murder, crime, and suicide rates that go along
with them, to the fact that you saw horrible things in Africa and put
them out of mind.
Well, living in America, where many people do tend to own guns, it's
hard to "push delete" and make them all disappear.  Namely because I
live here.  It's one thing to say that tragic things happen a place
that's horribly governed with little law, and it's another to say that
we have guns here, in my homeland, and people dislike it.
Very different.  Very, very different.
Honestly, bad analogy.

> I noticed a post that mentioned a statistic from the FBI
> website, 9,369 firearms related murders in the U.S. in 2002, another
> statistic to compare this to is the great genocide in Rwanda, 800,000
> murdered with machete's.

Here's a good page:

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_wit_fir-crime-murders-with-firearms

For a country with more guns *and better infrastructure* than any
other, we're not doing too well on the charts - unless you think the
top spot's a good one to hold.
You just compared the US to Rwanda.
Again, bad analogy.  I'd like to point out that if they'd had as many
guns in Rwanda as we have here in the US, barring munition shortages,
it's highly likely that more than 800,000 people would have died.
Just pointing it out....

> I assure you, in the right hands some sharp
> Chinga, or Seymchan slices that are for sale in several rooms in
> Tucson could dispatch one's life just as fast as a firearm.

Just as fast...maybe, but...you're a fool if you're comparing stabbing
someone to shooting them.
I'll say it again --
It's one thing to pull a trigger, and it's another to slit someone's
throat.  I've known a few people in my life who have pulled a trigger
one someone else, and I know for a fact that none of them have ever
gone after someone with a knife.  It really does take a different sort
of person.

> Peter
> Davidson, those who know me would probably agree that I am someone
> that could be pigeon holed into some Hick-Redneck category, Peter, I
> am not offended by your prejudice, I am proud of my heritage growing
> up on farms and ranches, oh yeah, I am a NRA life member too.

Eh, it's a culture that people tend to view negatively, but every
culture has its drawbacks.  "Redneck" crap aside, I think that it's
generally a stupid thing to own a gun, as supported by statistics
which suggest that you're more than twice as likely to die from murder
or suicide if you own one.
Again, that's your choice to make, but...it also means that there are
thousands of guns around me thanks to people like you, meaning that
all of the people like you who made that same choice are upping the
odds that I'll be held up by some fellow while walking back from the
library late at night, which isn't that cool, in my opinion.

> I trust
> that all of you that are so offended by this pic do not subscribe to
> cable, or satellite television services, nor do you attend movies with
> "morbid guns" in them.

This is such a strange comment that I really don't have much to say
about it...apparently I'm not allowed to see violent films because I
believe that people generally aren't "right" in their decision to own
guns, needlessly increasing the risk that they and others will die.
Of course, if I want to turn that back on you I could simply ask you
whether you've seen any apocalyptic films, because if you have, surely
you're an advocate of the destruction of the world.......
Ugh.

> Grow up, just click delete, and spend this much
> time finding some useful input for the METEORITE LIST. Maybe I will
> post a pic of my cats high up on one of my collection pieces so the
> PETA people can have there turn.

For someone advocating peoples' not posting their opinions and just
pushing the delete button, you're doing a lot to push your own opinion
on others.

It's posts like these that piss me off more than anything else; trying
to get the last word in while telling others to leave it alone.

I'll end with this - I read it somewhere and it stuck with me.

"Glasses don't see: people see."

- A good argument for the abolishment of glasses, no?

Jason

On Wed, Feb 3, 2010 at 8:03 PM, Robert Ward
<ironfromthesky.com at gmail.com> wrote:
> I spent three years training at the finest firearms institution on the
> planet learning about every aspect of the industry, and even designing
> and manufacturing my own firearms models, I am an expert in the field,
> and I assure you they are not "killing tools" and "assault rifles"
> when they leave the factory. They are pieces of metal and plastic,
> People do the killing, guns are inanimate objects. So Mr. G, I have
> been involved with firearms my entire life, ask my friends if they
> think I am a morbid person. You say we should not offend our European
> friends with our rights and traditions? Growing up I spent my summers
> in Africa, and I saw things that offended my that are far to morbid to
> mention here, I did not offend them by sharing my thoughts of these
> customs, I looked the other way and left, if that pic offends you push
> delete. I noticed a post that mentioned a statistic from the FBI
> website, 9,369 firearms related murders in the U.S. in 2002, another
> statistic to compare this to is the great genocide in Rwanda, 800,000
> murdered with machete's. I assure you, in the right hands some sharp
> Chinga, or Seymchan slices that are for sale in several rooms in
> Tucson could dispatch one's life just as fast as a firearm. Peter
> Davidson, those who know me would probably agree that I am someone
> that could be pigeon holed into some Hick-Redneck category, Peter, I
> am not offended by your prejudice, I am proud of my heritage growing
> up on farms and ranches, oh yeah, I am a NRA life member too. I trust
> that all of you that are so offended by this pic do not subscribe to
> cable, or satellite television services, nor do you attend movies with
> "morbid guns" in them. Grow up, just click delete, and spend this much
> time finding some useful input for the METEORITE LIST. Maybe I will
> post a pic of my cats high up on one of my collection pieces so the
> PETA people can have there turn. Robert Ward
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