[meteorite-list] Bugs In Space!
Mark Ford
mark.ford at ssl.gb.com
Fri Sep 18 05:22:26 EDT 2009
I did not say all life in the universe is from Earth, read my posts
again!!
I said the life we find on Earth originated from Earth that's all.
As I said there is every possibility life has started else where too.
We are not the centre of the universe! I never said we are, please don't
misquote me.
Best
Mark
-----Original Message-----
From: Meteorites USA [mailto:eric at meteoritesusa.com]
Sent: 17 September 2009 16:18
To: Mark Ford; meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Bugs In Space!
Hello everyone,
Again I feel compelled to respond to such Earth centered thinking. We
are NOT the center of everything. Our planet is merely a dot in billions
of trillions of other dots in this universe.
"...Sorry but imho panspermia is nothing more than religion by the back
door..."
ok... Not really.
"...Some people just cannot accept that life doesn't automatically have
to have come from outer space..."
Some people cannot except that life COULD come from out there.
"...where is the evidence to show that life cannot possibly start on
Earth?..."
There is lots of evidence to shows life could start here. But that does
not mean ALL life is from here. This "Earth centered" idea is flawed in
every way.
"...It has to start somewhere, and what better place than right here,
where the conditions are warm/wet/cold/ideal?..."
Again, Earth centered and ultimately wrong. This is not to say that life
that is present today on this planet could not have started on this
planet. Just because someone says that meteorites might have seeded
Earth, does not mean that ALL life was seeded from elsewhere. It's
flawed thinking because it leaves out the fact that SOME life could have
come from elsewhere. Just because someone says that rocks from space
could have brought life to our planet does not mean it is all
encompassing or empirical at all because there is evidence.
I believe the Panspermia theory may be flawed (or peoples understanding
of Panspermia anyway) if they state that all life came from elsewhere
simply because if all life came from elsewhere then where did
"elsewhere" get the life to begin with?
It had to come into existence from somewhere. If you don't believe in
evolution, then you believe in God, if you believe in God you most
likely don't believe in evolution. But I ask you why you can't believe
in both? (rhetorical, please do not answer this as it's NOT related to
meteorites ;)) This is NOT the topic I want to get into so I will
continue on...
So you believe the Earth is the Goldilocks planet. Given that you most
likely also believe there is a good chance that there is another system
out there with a star similar to our Sun and quite possibly another
planet similar to ours that lies within what science calls the habitable
zone. Or is that too big of a stretch?
Let's just say for the sake of argument there is another planet out
there nearby (relative to our system) that is in this zone and that
there is life on that planet. One can safely assume that large
asteroidal and cometary debris has at some time in the past slammed into
that planet. Perhaps even while life existed on it, thereby ejecting
billions of tons of debris into space over time. Some of that debris
would no doubt carry some form of microbial life that lives deep inside
the soil and rock. (perhaps even insects) Protected from the harshness
of the vacuum and cold of space.
Now we know that if there's a Goldilocks planet that there are most
likely other planets in that system as well, perhaps more, perhaps less
than our system, but our knowledge of solar system formation is one that
allows us to make an educated guess. The point is most of the debris
would be sucked into the orbits and eventually the atmospheres of other
planetary and larger bodies in that system. But. Not all of it would be.
Would it? Some of it would escape. Eventually...
Let's also say for sake of argument the Gliese 581 star system is home
to our habitable planet. This system is 20 light years away. In other
words it takes light 20 years to travel to Earth. (speed of light is
186,000 miles per second). A light year is 5,865,696,000,000 miles in
distance. Remember that number...
The question now is, how fast will the debris that is able to escape the
system be traveling? Well, I wasn't sure and did a little digging and
found this page
http://www.madsci.org/posts/archives/2001-03/985224290.As.r.html which
explains the speed of an orbiting asteroid to be at 47000 mph. Since I
wanted to verify, I check around and found this too:
http://www.spaceref.com/news/viewpr.html?pid=14258 which puts the speed
of an orbiting asteroid at 67,000 mph. A difference of 20,000 mph. A BIG
difference!
Still not convinced of the accuracy of the speed, I wanted to know a
more exact number I could apply to the debris to calculate the time it
would take for it to reach Earth. Then I found this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orbital_speed
OK, I'm not a mathematician so those formulas and calculations are not
something I can use just yet. How fast does debris travel out of the
atmosphere, and how fast does it travel through the system in it's
orbit? Will it speed up? A few more searches and yes, it does speed up.
If the Voyager space probes speed up over time so too should the ejecta
from the planet. http://hypertextbook.com/facts/1997/PatricePean.shtml
Speed of Voyager: 17.374 km/s = 38,864.5 mile/hour (mph)
Orbital Speed of Apophis: 30.728 km/s = 68,736.5 mile/hour (mph)
A number I could work with is a happy medium between the fastest orbital
speed of an asteroid, and the fastest speed of the Voyager spacecrafts.
38,864.5 + 68,736.5 = 107,601 MPH / 2 = 53,800.5 MPH average
If the distance of 1 light year is 5,865,696,000,000 miles and light
traveling from Gliese 581 takes 20 years to reach us then that star
system is 117,313,920,000,000 miles away.
It would take a piece if debris traveling at 53,800.5 MPH approximately
2,180,535,868 hours to make the trip. There are 8760 hours in a Julian
year. Divide that into our total travel time and that gives you 248,919
years. (someone please check my math. I'm pretty sure this is right)
So to travel from Gliese 581 to Earth the debris would take about a
quarter million years to reach Earth. Considering the Earth is 4.6
Billion years old, the 250K year interval is nothing in astronomical
time.
Scientists today believe that extremophiles are very capable of living
in a dormant state for millions of years. If the pieces of debris that
come from a habitable planet in the Gliese 581 system would that life
then be revived once it impacts our planet in the form of a meteorite?
I ask anyone, scientist or not to give me a good valid argument against
this theory other than the lack of probability that Gliese 581 is a life
bearing system. The point is it doesn't have to be our nearest solar
system neighbor. It could be any solar system that has existed within
the the 4.6 billion years the Earth has been here that is within that
space time range.
There are over 100 billion stars in our Milky Way alone. Do you really
believe that NONE of them support life but ours?
If I'm totally wrong or mistaken in my logic or math or anything else
please by all means tell me...
Regards,
Eric Wichman
www.meteoritesusa.com
www.meteoriteblog.com
www.spacifieds.com
Mark Ford wrote:
> There is much documented evidence of microbes in the upper atmosphere
> region, I think the debatable bit though is the suggestion that life
> must have come from somewhere other than from Earth, - This is simply
> not the case. I have seen no evidence to suggest anything other than
> that every single life form we have ever found originated right here
on
> earth.
>
> Some people just cannot accept that life doesn't automatically have to
> have come from outer space, they are entitled to hold that view, but
> where is the evidence to show that life cannot possibly start on
Earth?
> It has to start somewhere, and what better place than right here,
where
> the conditions are warm/wet/cold/ideal?
>
> Sorry but imho panspermia is nothing more than religion by the back
> door..
>
> Transfer of life from planet to planet via meteorites is more
> interesting, though even here we have the dilemma that just because
> highly evolved extreemophiles can potentially survive under controlled
> test conditions doesn't automatically mean they actually have, there
are
> many other complex variables to consider, many of which are still
poorly
> understood.
>
>
> Mark
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com
> [mailto:meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com] On Behalf Of
Becky
> and Kirk
> Sent: 17 September 2009 01:13
> To: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com
> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Bugs In Space!
>
> Phil,
> How is this "junk" science????
> Kirk...........
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "JoshuaTreeMuseum" <joshuatreemuseum at embarqmail.com>
> To: <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, September 16, 2009 10:11 AM
> Subject: [meteorite-list] Bugs In Space!
>
>
>
>> G'day, Konnichiwa, Aloha, Top 'o the morning to ya!:
>>
>>
>> Microbes from outer space living in the upper atmosphere and bacteria
>> living for millions of years! If I only had more time to read junk
>> science!
>>
>> Phil Whitmer
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Hi listees,
>>
>> Some interesting reading...
>>
>> "...To test if meteorites might protect bacteria on their journey
>> through space, Horneck and her colleagues mixed samples of 50 million
>> spores with particles of clay, red sandstone, Martian meteorite, or
>> simulated Martian soil and made small lumps a centimeter in diameter.
>> Between 10,000 and 100,000 spores of the original 50 million survived
>> and when mixed with red sandstone, nearly all survived, suggesting
>>
> that
>
>> even meteorites a centimeter in diameter can carry life from one
>>
> planet
>
>> to another, if they completed the journey within a few years. In a
>>
> rock
>
>> a meter across, bacteria could probably survive for millions of
>>
> years...."
>
>> Still don't believe?
>> ______________________________________________
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>
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