[meteorite-list] YD impact - doing as best they can

[oxytropidoceras at cox.net]

In response to " Newly Published Junk Science on Younger Dryas Impact" at:
http://six.pairlist.net/pipermail/meteorite-list/2009-November/058066.html
E.P. Grondine stated:

"All I can do is re-iterate that there is no reason 
for several of the peoples to have made up stories 
of this impact, other than that it did occur. So I 
have a very pro-impact bias, which you can dismiss 
as nonsense based on fairly tales if you like.”

First a problem is that Native American oral history is not a 
straight forward historical account as you insist that it is. It also
includes tribal religious beliefs and moral instruction. As a result,
history has been interpreted to support religion. Also, it contains
symbolism, which cannot be separate from historical observations.
Thus, it is a mistake to insist that Native American tradition be 
interpreted literally just like Young Earth creationists insists the
Bible be interpreted literally. You are making materialistic 
interpretations of literature that hopefully mixed together with
significant amounts of religious revelation, symbolism, and 
teaching.

Finally, the Native American oral history lacks any precise and 
reliable chronology. Even though oral history make mentions
of an event, it is impossible for you or anyone else to argue that
an event described in oral history is contemporaneous a 
hypothesize Younger Dryas event. The events that you talk may 
have happened hundreds, thousands, or tens of thousands years
before the were first recorded in written form. There is a lack of
any means of securely dating events described in oral history 
even if their reality and character is correctly interpreted by you.

If civilization was to crumble in the near future and either the 
“Stars Fell on Alabama” lyrics were to survive, in oral tradition, 
this cataclysm, I can vision future archaeologists and 
anthropologists arguing over whether this song is evidence of
the event that caused the fall of our civilization or an earlier 
cataclysm at the end of the Pleistocene. If this song was only 
preserved in oral history, there would be no way of 
determining when the event recorded in this song occurred.

Grondine further wrote:

“Except for the sudden drop in population 
evidenced by the ending of quarry usage."

This interpretation, as a number of interpretations is hotly disputed
and remains unsettled at this time.

“While Firestone is a nuclear physicist with little 
geological training, in point of fact the layer with 
the markers is thin - there was not much material 
deposited by this impact, unlike Chicxulub and 
Shiva. So unless Ivester was very careful in his 
sampling, he could have missed it.”

You are completely confused here. Dr. Firestone’s comments
concerned only optically stimulated luminescence (OSL) dating) 
done by Ivester. The dismissive remarks by Dr. Firestone had 
nothing to with impact ejecta or indicators of any type. Your 
comments about Ivester missing a thin impact layer are totally
beside the point and irreverent to the discussion.

... irreverent Vogon Poetry about NASA omitted...

Grodine continued:

“Also, it is entirely possible that neutron production 
in impact threw off Ivester's OSL dates. (Odessa 
again.)”

If you take the time to read what is published about OSL dating, you will find that what you propose above scientifically bankrupt
nonsense. This is just a lame ad hoc hypothesis to arbitrarily 
dismiss some unpleasant facts.

Grodine continued:

“As far as one point of impact goes, I can agree 
with you about not being in the Lakes. Why? 
The Five Nations would not have survived 
and left us their account of it. I still favor the 
Kiscoty, Alberta structure. Perhaps there are 
other similar structures evidencing impacts in 
ice sheets elsewhere, but then NASA is spending 
$0 looking for them.”

Do you mean “Kitscoty”, not “Kiscoty”? The 2009 SEIS impact 
crater database does not list any such reported impact structure.

...more Vogon Poetry about NASA and Morrison omitted...

Finally, Grodine stated:

“Dr. Firestone must be getting closer to nailing 
this one down, or he would not upset you so.”

Given that Firestone has only managed with his latest article to 
the get the attention of a single rather unimportant, insignificant 
person, me, who only has a M.S. in Geology and the other 
99.999 percent could care less about what he wrote in it, it
appears that Dr. Firestone nailed only his thumb and nothing
else according to the above logic.
 
In sharp contrast, the papers written by Dr. Kennett and others
have gotten the attention of major researchers and generated 
additional research, and publication.

Best Regards,

Paul H.