[meteorite-list] The tale of a falling star

Wed Jun 10 10:35:23 EDT 2009

Great post Sterling!  Thanks for the links too. :)

On 6/10/09, Sterling K. Webb <sterling_k_webb at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> Doug said:
>> I am thinking [of] Greece, Cyprus and Turkey, but no meteorite comes
>> to mind.
>
> I'm sure Doug named those places because
> there were famous meteorites of religious
> significance associated with sites there. While
> it is true that their whereabouts is presently
> unknown [and will likely remain that way), there's
> no doubt whatsoever about their existence.
>
> So, no, no ancient ruins "yielded" authenticated
> meteorites. You see, there was this obscure
> religious cult that took over and tried, with great
> success, to destroy all traces of any previous
> religious worship, temples, shrines, relics, and
> so forth.
>
> No meteorite survivors of Greece and Rome are
> known.
>
> However, there are pieces of the "Black Stone" of
> the Kaa'ba, a meteorite, in Turkey (by a List memeber):
> http://kauscience.k12.hi.us/~ted/Blackstone/hajar-al-aswad.htm
>
> The meteoritic nature (or non-nature) of a famous
> Temple stone is discussed by another List member:
> http://imca.repetti.net/articles/IMCA-Insights4.htm
>
> Evidence in coinage of Temple stones, some of which
> were meteorites, can be found here (more List members):
> http://www.pibburns.com/catastro/metstamp.htm#classicalcoins
>
> A discussion of various meteoritic Temple stones can be
> found here (Popular ASstronomy, 1936, at ADS):
> http://articles.adsabs.harvard.edu//full/1936PA.....44..514W/0000514.000.html
>
> Traditionally, the Classical Temple stones were
> "nose-cone" shaped. In a word, oriented (if they were
> meteorites). There is a fascinating discussion of why
> the baetyls that are found are not actually meteorites.
> The explanation? Lots of shrines, but not so many
> meteorites!
> http://www.ancients.info/forums/showthread.php?t=845
>
> Everybody wants a meteorite for their Temple, ya know?
>
>
>
> Sterling K. Webb
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Mexicodoug" <mexicodoug at aim.com>
> To: <Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, June 09, 2009 10:40 PM
> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] The tale of a falling star
>
>
>> Great article, though this paragraph about other "meteors" being found
>> need editing:
>>
>> "Other meteors have been located in ancient ruins of the Americas, as
>> well as around the world, ranging in size from the three ounce
>> Pojoaque meteorite, found in an ancient pottery bowl near Santa Fe,
>> N.M., to the 3,407-pound Casas Grandes iron discovered in an Inca ruin
>> near Chihuahua, Mexico."
>>
>> The Incas, of course are not from Chihuahua, but a good fraction of a
>> world away in Peru ... The author is referring to the Paquimé pueblo
>> of the probably Anasazi Pueblo type Indians (Like from the US
>> southwest), though they may have had a tad more of Aztec influence.
>> And the meteorite is from INSIDE Chihuahua (the state), and NEAR
>> Nuevas Casas Grandes. It was found far from Chihuahua City actually
>> much closer to Arizona which is just 93 miles away. Political
>> boundaries...bah :-)
>>
>> Does anyone recall what other ancient ruins yielded authenticated
>> meteorites outside the Americas as claiming by the article they are
>> found "all around the world in ancient ruins". I am thinking Greece,
>> Cyprus and Turkey, but no meteorite comes to mind. And the Japanese
>> one was certainly not found in ruins.
>>
>> Another tear shed today after reading about the other Grand Canyon
>> fragment...
>>
>> "In 1953, after America abandoned Route 66, Nininger moved his
>> collection to Sedona, where it was put on display in the Verde Valley
>> for the first time in nearly 800 yea
>> rs."
>>
>> One (at least me) wonders whether the "800 year buried piece of Canyon
>> Diablo (Camp Verde piece)" was ever at all "on display" on the Native
>> American Sinagua or if it was placed to rest with that stone
>> ceremonially out of sight with respects being rendered specifically
>> NOT to be displayed, I am not sure how this statement about displaying
>> could be made in the article with any accuracy, and suppose the author
>> really got carried away trying to say the Camp Verde piece is on
>> display in the Verde Vally of AZ...but not sure; thanks for the post!
>>
>> Best wishes,
>> Doug
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Michael Groetz <mpg4444 at gmail.com>
>> To: Meteorite List <Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
>> Sent: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 8:37 pm
>> Subject: [meteorite-list] The tale of a falling star
>>
>>
>>
>> http://verdenews.com/main.asp?SectionID=1&subsectionID=1&articleID=31230
>>
>> The tale of a falling star
>> By Steve Ayers, Staff Reporter
>>
>> Tuesday, June 09, 2009
>>
>> CAMP VERDE - George Dawson was no stranger to hard work.
>>
>> A seasoned construction hand, he traveled extensively throughout
>> Central America and the American southwest, moving mountains for money
>> and, when time allowed, doing some digging on his own for both fun and
>> profit.
>>
>> In the spring of 1927, Dawson found himself between jobs. A Phoenix
>> resident, he loaded his truck with supplies and tools of his trade,
>> and headed north, hoping the fertile ground of the Verde Valley would
>> surren
>> der its ancient treasures.
>>
>> Pothunters like Dawson knew the valley to be a steady source of income
>> for anyone willing to turn over a few stones.
>>
>> For this trip he chose a uniquely constructed ruin located on a
>> windswept, five-acre mesa above West Clear Creek.
>>
>> With a view of the entire valley, the outline of its crumbled walls
>> looked more like a stockade than a home, a nearly square perimeter of
>> rooms surrounding a common courtyard.
>>
>> Latter-day archaeologists believe the pueblo was built by people of
>> the Salado culture, indigenous to the Salt River Valley, instead of
>> the native Sinagua whose former homes make up the bulk of the Verde's
>> ancient architecture.
>>
>> A very good day
>>
>> One day while searching through rubble in the northeast corner of one
>> room, Dawson spied a familiar structure -- one that led him to believe
>> it was going to be a good day -- a very good day.
>>
>> The flat slab of sandstone at his feet, he knew to be the cover of a
>> burial cyst, just the right size to contain the body of a child, along
>> with whatever treasures the family had packed along for the afterlife.
>>
>> Dawson slid the cover back and began clearing the accumulated dirt and
>> debris. Eighteen inches down he uncovered a layer of feathers. As he
>> gently scraped away he realized in was a blanket of feathers, wrapped
>> about the cherished treasure.
>>
>> An hour or so later, having cleared out all but the feather blanket
>> and its contents, he reached20in and gently lifted the bundle.
>>
>> It pulled back.
>>
>> A second more forceful tug and Dawson realized it was not the
>> lightweight body of the child he had expected.
>>
>> With great difficulty, he wrestled the object from its grave, pulled
>> back the delicate feather blanket and found himself gazing at a
>> two-foot long, one-foot wide, five-inch thick, 135-pound, oddly-shaped
>> hunk of rusting rock.
>>
>> Dawson had an idea of what he was looking at, but it was not until
>> several months later, after it was tested, that he knew for sure. The
>> object so delicately wrapped and reverently placed in the stone cyst
>> was a nickel-iron meteorite, or what meteorite collectors call simply,
>> an iron.
>>
>> The second journey
>>
>> To date, know one knows how it got there.
>>
>> We do know that Dawson sold it in 1939 to one of the preeminent
>> meteorite researchers and collectors of his day, Harold Harlow
>> Nininger, who dubbed it the Camp Verde Meteorite. Convention dictated
>> it be named for the closest post office or geological feature.
>>
>> We also know that in 1959 Nininger sold the meteorite, along with more
>> than 700 others, to Arizona State University, where it is currently
>> housed in the school's meteorite collection at ASU's Center for
>> Meteorite Studies.
>>
>> What significance the object held to the architecturally unique souls
>> who once lived on Wingfield Mesa, we will likely never know.
>> Archaeologists have uncovered feather blankets, and several
>> meteorites, in archaeological digs.
>> Dawson is the only one to have
>> found both of them together.
>>
>> Religious significance
>>
>> A year after Dawson's find, two pothunters discovered another
>> meteorite in a stone cyst, or at least 40 to 50 pounds of fragments
>> thereof, in a ruin east of Flagstaff. It became known as the Winona
>> Meteorite and is now on display at the museum of Northern Arizona.
>>
>> Other meteors have been located in ancient ruins of the Americas, as
>> well as around the world, ranging in size from the three ounce
>> Pojoaque meteorite, found in an ancient pottery bowl near Santa Fe,
>> N.M., to the 3,407-pound Casas Grandes iron discovered in an Inca ruin
>> near Chihuahua, Mexico.
>>
>> As Peter Pilles, archaeologist for the Coconino National Forest, has
>> observed, when archaeologists are uncertain about an object's use or
>> importance, they give it religious significance.
>>
>> But in the case of the Camp Verde meteorite, with its feather
>> wrappings and the fact it was stored in the same manner as human
>> remains, there can be little doubt it was held in reverence.
>>
>> Scientific questions
>>
>> Lawrence Garvie, director of meteorite collection at ASU, is a
>> scientist both by nature and by training. But even he can't help but
>> speculate on the meteorite's unusual shape and significance.
>>
>> "It looks to me more like a child than a leaf or an arrowhead, as some
>> have described it. It has a distinctive head and shoulders, and a very
>> pronounced backbone that appears to have been rubbed smooth by human
>> touch. And when struck it has a beautiful ringing sound," Garvie says.
>>
>> For scientists like Garvie, and the Center for Meteorites Studies
>> founder and former director, Carleton Moore, the meteorite also poses
>> some real world questions, not the least of which is where did it fall
>> and how did it end up in the ruins of an ancient pueblo.
>>
>> About 50,000 years ago, a 150-foot diameter, 300,000-ton, iron and
>> nickel meteorite crashed into Canyon Diablo outside of modern-day
>> Winslow, creating Meteor Crater. The impact vaporized at least half
>> and scattered the remaining pieces across a wide area of the Colorado
>> Plateau.
>>
>> "The interesting thing about Camp Verde is that it does not look like
>> the other Canyon Diablo irons," Moore says. "Its chemistry, however,
>> is identical. So the only conclusion we can make is that it is a piece
>> of Canyon Diablo.
>>
>> "But I have always had my doubts. The other great puzzle is also how
>> did it get so far from Meteor Crater. The nomadic people who lived in
>> Arizona didn't lug these sorts of things around."
>>
>> Garvie and Moore both believe it is possible the Camp Verde meteorite
>> was a fragment that separated from the main mass of the Canyon Diablo
>> meteorite as it broke apart in the atmosphere, landing farther south.
>>
>> Fact or fiction
>>
>> As for the fate of the feather blanket, it was parceled out and lost.
>> According to a correspondence from Dawson to Nininger, he (Dawson)
>> gave away pieces of the blanket=2
>> 0to collectors over the years.
>>
>> It would seem possible that the entire story of the Camp Verde
>> meteorite is pure fiction, dreamt up by Dawson to make an otherwise
>> common iron meteorite more valuable, were it not for statements in a
>> narrative Nininger later wrote.
>>
>> Nininger notes he never heard the story of the meteorite's discovery
>> until he came to Phoenix to make the purchase. There is also the fact
>> that he bought it for what he described as no more than "the price
>> usually paid for Canyon Diablo irons ($0.50 per pound)."
>>
>> Lastly, in April 1940, at Nininger's request, Dawson brought him to
>> Camp Verde to see the pueblo and search for feathers or the remains of
>> the cyst.
>>
>> "We hunted the long line of obscure ruins until he reached the
>> crumbled walls of a small room, in the corner of which was a slight
>> depression and several flat stones protruding from the drifted dust
>> and debris.
>>
>> "Digging out the filling of dust and weeds failed to reveal a shred of
>> the feather cloth wrapping, but this was hardly surprising...We
>> gathered the flat stones and made several trips down the steep slope
>> to the car and back again," Nininger states.
>>
>> Final journey
>>
>> The ancient owners of the Camp Verde meteorite may or may not have
>> lugged it around in their travels, but Nininger did. For seven years
>> following its purchase, he continued to search the planet for what had
>> fallen from the heavens.
>>
>> Then in 1946, he quit the road and esta
>> blished the American Meteorite
>> Museum on Route 66 near Meteor Crater, where it went on public
>> display.
>>
>> In 1953, after America abandoned Route 66, Nininger moved his
>> collection to Sedona, where it was put on display in the Verde Valley
>> for the first time in nearly 800 years.
>>
>> Today the Camp Verde meteorite rests prominently on a table with two
>> dozen other irons, many of which came with the Nininger collection, in
>> the center of a room containing hundreds of other meteorites from
>> across the world and, ultimately, beyond.
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-- 
.........................................................
Michael Gilmer (Louisiana, USA)
Member of the Meteoritical Society.
Member of the Bayou Region Stargazers Network.
Websites - http://www.galactic-stone.com and http://www.glassthrower.com
..........................................................