[meteorite-list] The tale of a falling star

Wed Jun 10 09:59:38 EDT 2009

Hi Doug,

Didn't you forget Winona ?

See here a quite interesting read:

http://sped2work.tripod.com/elden.html

My best,

Zelimir

At 11:09 10/06/2009, Mexicodoug wrote:
>Sterling wrote:
>
>"So, no, no ancient ruins "yielded" 
>authenticated meteorites. You see, there was 
>this obscure religious cult that took over and 
>tried, with great success, to destroy all traces 
>of any previous religious worship, temples, shrines, relics, and so forth."
>
>His Sterling, List, Rob M and Greg H,
>
>I asked if anyone could come up with an example 
>of an authentic meteorite being found in any 
>ancient ruins outside the Americas, after 
>reading this great recap of Camp Verde. This 
>really wasn't motivated by religion; more it was 
>just from this exciting type of meteorite 
>recovery in hand making a bridge from the modern 
>world too the past, and because I have become 
>very skeptical of the author of that article 
>apparently using Lawrence Garvie as his source 
>and others' claims, that meteorites have been 
>found in ancient ruins worldwide. Well, if you 
>can't Google up any meteorites found from ruins 
>outside the Americas, so now it is officially 
>independently confirmed at least to me, thank 
>you!! :-) Let me now, raise this one level further:
>
>So far, it would seem that the Americas, and in 
>fact, only North America (please correct me if 
>you recall something found in any South American 
>ruins because I can't despite Campo and the real Incan Empire, etc...).
>
>Regarding meteorites being found in ancient 
>ruins ... in fact, outside Brenham, Glorieta, 
>Canyon Diablo, Casas Grandes, and Chihuahua - 
>the list seems20to end, unless you add a few 
>more from some mounds in, fine, again, the US, 
>this time its southeast. It ends so abruptly 
>that it feels like I am abysmally missing 
>something big (No, Willamette was not found in 
>any ruins, and it is in US territory anyway)... 
>Maybe I should have added Namibia and Mongolia, 
>Greenland and Siberia? By no means does this 
>need to be restricted to ancient Mediterranean 
>region and Arabian Peninsula, though they get the most lip service.
>
>Are the only places meteorites have been found 
>in ancient ruins, then, in North America, 
>between the latitudes of Florida and Ohio? 
>Somehow this is shocking as well as 
>disconcerting with 20/20 meteoritic vision on the past ...
>
>Oh, before I forget to mention this, which is 
>another unrelated general comment about the 
>article: this paragraph was really interesting 
>for comparison with Greg's exciting Ocate, NM iron:
>
>"The interesting thing about Camp Verde is that 
>it does not look like the other Canyon Diablo 
>irons," Moore says. "Its chemistry, however, is 
>identical. So the only conclusion we can make is 
>that it is a piece of Canyon Diablo."
>
>I wonder what Dr. Moore would say regarding 
>Ocate if he had a chance to look at it?
>
>To Rob's table I have added the ranges from 
>Buchwald (1975) to show some variation among 
>other researchers /specimens in testing for the 
>two elements Rob identified as potential outliers for a pairing: Ga and
>Ge. Also from Buchwald are the old results 
>Wasson (1968) showed for Camp Verde though the 
>experimental uncertainties were not listed in 
>the book. You can see the outliers by Rob's 
>method, suddenly seem to be part of the pack 
>just by comparing things holistically rather 
>than assuming test methodology and specific 
>samples tested to have reproducible uniformity.
>
>Elem. Ocate, NM Canyon Diablo Diff. Sigma
>----- -------------- --------------- ----- -----
>Ni 69.9 +/- 0.5 69.2 +/- 1.7 0.7 < 1
>Co 0.466 +/- 0.004 0.468 +/- 0.015 0.002 << 1
>
>Ga 71.9 +/- 0.3 83.8 +/- 3.4 11.9 3.2
>***(VB 74 - 81.8, Camp Verde 78)***
>
>Ge 271 +/- 6 322 +/- 19 51 2.0
>***(VB 283 - 324, Camp Verde 322)***
>
>Ir 2.25 +/- 0.04 2.17 +/- 0.07 0.08 < 1
>Au 1.60 +/- 0.03 1.57 +/- 0.11 0.03 << 1
>As 15.2 +/- 0.3 12.7 +/- 0.7 2.5 2.5
>Cu 119 +/- 11 148 +/- 6 29 1.7
>W 0.87 +/- 0.08 0.99 +/- .129 0.12 < 1
>Re 0.22 +/- 0.02 0.228 +/- 0.027 0.008 << 1
>
>To be clear, IMO if Ocate is indeed a 
>transported Canyon Diablo,it can only be more 
>interesting, and greatly more especially, if the 
>morphology compares favorably to Camp Verde. Has 
>the Ocate mass photo been posted yet? I hope the 
>Canadian classifiers can share their analytical 
>notes on material and methods, with Wasson, 
>Moore and Co., and appreciate their work with 
>Greg in getting this interesting find done relatively quickly.
>
>
>Best wishes, Doug
>
>
>
>----
>-Original Message-----
>From: Sterling K. Webb <sterling_k_webb at sbcglobal.net>
>To: Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com; Mexicodoug <mexicodoug at aim.com>
>Sent: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 11:57 pm
>Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] The tale of a falling star
>
>Everybody wants a meteorite for their Temple, ya know?Â
>Â
>Â
>Sterling K. WebbÂ
>--------------------------------------------------------------------Â
>----- Original Message ----- From: "Mexicodoug" <mexicodoug at aim.com>Â
>To: <Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>Â
>Sent: Tuesday, June 09, 2009 10:40 PMÂ
>Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] The tale of a falling starÂ
>Â
>>Great article, though this paragraph about other "meteors" being
>found > need editing:Â
>>Â
>>"Other meteors have been located in ancient ruins of the Americas, asÂ
>>well as around the world, ranging in size from the three ounceÂ
>>Pojoaque meteorite, found in an ancient pottery bowl near Santa Fe,Â
>>N.M., to the 3,407-pound Casas Grandes iron discovered in an Inca
>ruinÂ
>>near Chihuahua, Mexico."Â
>>Â
>>The Incas, of course are not from Chihuahua, but a good fraction of a
> > world away in Peru ... The author is 
> referring to the PaquimÃ© pueblo > of the 
> probably Anasazi Pueblo type Indians (Like from 
> the US > southwest), though they may have had a 
> tad more of Aztec influence. > And the 
> meteorite is from INSIDE Chihuahua (the state), 
> and NEAR > Nuevas Casas Grandes. It was found far from Chih
>uahua City actually > much closer to Arizona 
>which is just 93 miles away. Political > boundaries...bah :-)Â
>>Â
>>Does anyone recall what other ancient ruins yielded authenticated >
>meteorites outside the Americas as claiming by 
>the article they are > found "all around the 
>world in ancient ruins". I am thinking Greece, > 
>Cyprus and Turkey, but no meteorite comes to 
>mind. And the Japanese > one was certainly not found in ruins.Â
>>Â
>>Another tear shed today after reading about the other Grand Canyon >
>fragment...Â
>>Â
>>"In 1953, after America abandoned Route 66, Nininger moved hisÂ
>>collection to Sedona, where it was put on display in the Verde ValleyÂ
>>for the first time in nearly 800 yeaÂ
>>rs."Â
>>Â
>>One (at least me) wonders whether the "800 year buried piece of
>Canyon > Diablo (Camp Verde piece)" was ever at 
>all "on display" on the Native > American 
>Sinagua or if it was placed to rest with that 
>stone > ceremonially out of sight with respects 
>being rendered specifically > NOT to be 
>displayed, I am not sure how this statement 
>about displaying > could be made in the article 
>with any accuracy, and suppose the author > 
>really got carried away trying to say the Camp 
>Verde piece is on > display in the Verde Vally 
>of AZ...but not sure; thanks for the post!Â
>>Â
>>Best wishes,Â
>>DougÂ
>>Â
>>Â
>>-----Original Mess
>age-----Â
>>From: Michael Groetz <mpg4444 at gmail.com>Â
>>To: Meteorite List <Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>Â
>>Sent: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 8:37 pmÂ
>>Subject: [meteorite-list] The tale of a falling starÂ
>>Â
>>Â
>>Â
>http://verdenews.com/main.asp?SectionID=1&subsectionID=1&articleID=31230Â
>>Â
>>The tale of a falling starÂ
>>By Steve Ayers, Staff ReporterÂ
>>Â
>>Tuesday, June 09, 2009Â
>>Â
>>CAMP VERDE - George Dawson was no stranger to hard work.Â
>>Â
>>A seasoned construction hand, he traveled extensively throughoutÂ
>>Central America and the American southwest, moving mountains for
>moneyÂ
>>and, when time allowed, doing some digging on his own for both fun
>andÂ
>>profit.Â
>>Â
>>In the spring of 1927, Dawson found himself between jobs. A PhoenixÂ
>>resident, he loaded his truck with supplies and tools of his trade,Â
>>and headed north, hoping the fertile ground of the Verde Valley wouldÂ
>>surrenÂ
>>der its ancient treasures.Â
>>Â
>>Pothunters like Dawson knew the valley to be a steady source of
>incomeÂ
>>for anyone willing to turn over a few stones.Â
>>Â
>>For this tri
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Prof. Zelimir Gabelica
Université de Haute Alsace
ENSCMu, Lab. GSEC,
3, Rue A. Werner,
F-68093 Mulhouse Cedex, France
Tel: +33 (0)3 89 33 68 94
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