[meteorite-list] Dealers, Sellers: Please INSURE your shipments

Wed Jun 3 16:01:27 EDT 2009

Carl said:
"First of all registered mail must be secured using paper tape which 
cannot be removed and the tape is date stamped all along every edge of 
the tape (this assures that the tape has not been tampered with)."

Martin said:
"(I remember a country, where, before it joined EU, people having to 
mail
there, wrote even on normal letter: "Contains no money!"....)."

Gary said:
"Never declare that you are shipping meteorites or even minerals - it
makes it too tempting to steal. "

Dear List:
As countries vary in customs (=practices), it is necessary to determine 
mailing strategy on a case by case basis on what works best - and who 
better than your foreign correspondent, a kindred soul, who knows his 
country and enters in good faith into what both hope is a fun 
transaction. And then to follow through as ethically as possible on 
both sides - not resorting to loopholes with PayPal, etc., when dealing 
with friends.

Speaking of different worlds, for example, this is a Gold Bug Type 1 
here:
http://www.diogenite.com/kafer.jpg

Carl: This is the States' procedure. Unfortunately, not all countries 
follow this protocol, whether it is by international convention or not. 
In Mexico, the user tapes it up with personal tape (whatever kind (s)he 
has), it does not need to be "hermetically sealed", and the agents at 
the post office window wonder about you if you ask for any special 
treatment or try to rock the boat on how they do it. Well, we don't pay 
the exorbitant over USD 10 to register a package, like American 
mailings - and it still provides extra security. If your parcel has 
value to/from here, the rule is, do everything you can so that no one 
knows it has value. If someone know$ or think$, it is very likely that 
your package will become theirs.

Gary: As for writing "Geological Samples for Study", I am scratching my 
head on that one, not because I'm a purist, but rather what the implied 
representation if you ever got into a mess with the specimen. Perhaps 
"Sample for Geological Studies" :-) Personally I have never had a 
problem when writing "mineral". But as Zelimir mentioned, results may 
vary...

And to Martin: Not much has changed since 2007 in the big scheme of 
things and I bet things still get pilfered even there. In our part of 
the world, we do write "contains no cash" on envelopes often and as a 
matter of course and without any consternation ... Theft is not a 
characteristic of only lower rated GDP countries, I will guaranty to 
you that theft will be around in the year 3009 if people are still 
around to observe it,though controls hopefully good.

As for the fine print on PayPal that has been the menace to many 
upstanding dealers which no one has dealt with head on: This thread 
turned into general guidelines. Martin came closest to addressing the 
original problem with the Argentine mailing problem of the original 
post when he said: "It should be clear, what the receiver and the 
sender do want, for finding a compromise between safety, costs and 
speed." But he forgot to emphasize "...and RESPONSIBILITY". There is 
nothing wrong with discussing responsibility even though it could be 
interpreted the wrong way or yikes, be abused once set in stone - i.e., 
demotivate a transaction from an aspiring collector. But let's face it: 
The price influences everything. If someone is taking risk, he should 
get a favorable break on $ in the deal to compensate for that risk. 
That's how the world seems to work when buying/selling everything else.

Best wishes,
Doug

-----Original Message-----
From: cdtucson at cox.net
To: MeteorList <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>; Gary Fujihara 
<fujmon at mac.com>
Sent: Wed, 3 Jun 2009 11:28 am
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Dealers, Sellers: Please INSURE your 
shipments

Gary,
I don't think you get how registered mail works. It is far better than
certified mail. First of all registered mail must be secured using 
paper tape
which cannot be removed and the tape is date stamped all along every 
edge of
the tape (this assures that the tape has not been tampered with). Then 
as added
security the mail has to be signed for every time it changes hands. If 
at any
point in the process the package has been opened or tampered with the 
process
ends and the last person to sign for item is held responsible. This 
assures that
there can be no corruption. These carriers guard this mail with their 
life.
So, registered mail is a safe way to go and I trust this so much that I 
never
even buy insurance. No need.
I hope this clears it up.
Aloha to you too.
Carl Esparza
IMCA 5829

---- Gary Fujihara <fujmon at mac.com> wrote:
> Aloha listees,
>
> I want to thank everyone who responded to my email. Many good points
> were brought to my attention, so I thought I would condense them into
> a sort of Reader's Digest version here:
>
> * Many points of origin and destination offer no insurance for 
shipped
> items. Unless you self-insure by some third-party underwriter ...
> seems like a hassle though. (FWIW, the country of origin of my
> shipment allowed insurance)
>
> * Some dealers or sellers understate the value of their shipments to
> reduce the tax burden on the buyer for international transactions.
> But it is always as a dual agreement between the buyer and seller
> before this is done.
>
> * A high value declared on a shipment can slow down the delivery and
> invite theft.
>
> * A very good option for overseas shipments for very valuable
> specimens are the courier services. A good option for very, very
> expensive shipments is to deliver in person (anyone for a trip to
> Hawaii? ;-)
>
> * Never declare that you are shipping meteorites or even minerals - 
it
> makes it too tempting to steal. A better strategy may be to declare
> "Geological specimen for research", which is accurate but less
> attractive to thieves.
>
> * Use Paypal or a major credit card for transactions. Most have buyer
> protection plans that can cover your loss (I don't know if I qualify,
> but I have inquired).
>
> * Purchases made on eBay or paid through Paypal are protected in the
> same manner (I don't know if I qualify but I have inquired - keep in
> mind that you can't double-dip from both eBay and Paypal).
>
> * Always ship registered mail because the mail has to be signed for
> each time it changes hands. No insurance is needed because it cannot
> get lost. (well my package didn't get lost - it made it right to
> me ... empty).
>
> * For those of you who were wondering: No, I wasn't buying illegal
> meteorites from Argentina - no Campos or Berduc.
>
> * Keep all receipts, you need tangible evidence of the cost that you
> paid (which could be problematic if you, the seller is also the 
finder
> of the stones).
>
> * On larger orders, the seller should recommend insurance to the
> buyer, who may elect not to do so at his/her own risk. But give the
> buyer the choice, make him an active participant in the shipment.
>
> * There are inherent risks in doing business on the internet - caveat
> emptor!
>
> The current status of my lost shipment of meteorites from Argentina 
is
> that I filed a Dispute with Paypal, which I escalated to a Claim. At
> this point, Paypal has contacted the seller for information regarding
> the shipment tracking information, after which it will review the
> transaction and make a determination. Fingers crossed. Mahalo nui
> loa (thank you very much) for everyone's responses and offers of
> sympathy. Sympathy is okay, but my rocks would be better, and since I
> will probably never see them in my collection, then the money I paid
> to procure them would be a reasonable outcome that I can accept.
>
> I hope this thread, and the information contained therein are of use
> to both sellers and buyers. The best of luck to everyone in all of
> your transactions and rock on!
>
> gary
>
>
> On Jun 1, 2009, at 12:59 PM, Gary Fujihara wrote:
>
> > Aloha,
> >
> > I have been the victim of theft after discovering that over $1600
> > worth of meteorites were missing from a shipment I received from
> > Argentina. I had noticed the package felt light, but discovered
> > that the US postal service is not responsible for thefts of the
> > contents of international mailed items that are not insured. This
> > shipment was not insured and so I will in all likelihood take the
> > full brunt of this loss.
> >
> > Thievery by customs officials, foreign and domestic postal workers
> > and other individuals or organized groups inside and outside the US
> > is a possibility! I believe most packages arrive at their
> > destinations with their contents intact, but feel it is negligent
> > and at the very least unconscionable not to insure shipments at or
> > above the full value of the contents. I know it costs more to do
> > so, but please consider insurance especially for foreign shipments.
> > Mailing specimen cards and paperwork separately from the meteorites
> > can also prevent thieves from knowing what those "Mineral Samples"
> > are.
> >
> > Is it fair for me, the buyer to take the loss alone for this theft?
> > I personally don't think so, unless I was given a choice and 
elected
> > not to insure. I would hope that the seller (an IMCA member who, to
> > his credit is working with me) would have a sudden rush of
> > conscience and compensate, or share the loss with me, since his act
> > of omission provides me with little if any recourse. What are my
> > rights, and what can I do? Do other dealers insure their
> > shipments? What is SOP?
> >
> > Gary Fujihara
> > AstroDay Institute
> > 105 Puhili Place, Hilo, HI 96720
> > (808) 640-9161, fujmon at mac.com
> > http://astroday.net
> >
> > ______________________________________________
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> > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com
> > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
>
>
> Gary Fujihara
> AstroDay Institute
> 105 Puhili Place, Hilo, HI 96720
> (808) 640-9161, fujmon at mac.com
> http://astroday.net
>
> ______________________________________________
> http://www.meteoritecentral.com
> Meteorite-list mailing list
> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com
> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
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