[meteorite-list] How about a thread to discuss hunting ethics - west

[MeteorHntr at aol.com]

Hello Jason,

I have a feeling this is  going to get deep.

You are a collector that likes to buy things as cheap  as you can, intending 
to never sell your collection ever, and as such, your only  concern is to get 
as much good stuff as cheap as you can.  You don't care  at all what your 
collection might be worth in dollar figures now or at anytime  in the future.

I on the other hand am a dealer, that doesn't collect, and  as such I like to 
sell things so that I can make as much profit as I can.   Let me point out 
that selling a few specimens at a high price and not selling  many of the 
remaining specimens in my inventory usually is not a clear  definition of making the 
most possible.  Neither is selling all I have in  24 hours at a low price 
just to get the most cash quickly.  

For  both of us to agree on the forthcoming issues is going to be hard, if 
not  impossible.  So my goal is not going to be to try to change your  mind.  I 
will be happy to simply present my challege to your comment that  your 
specimens only "Cost" you $12/g compared to the "clinically insane" prices  you 
suggest $50 to $100/g is that are being charged by me and  others.

First off, my prices have ranges from a base of $35/g up to  $105/g.  

Here is my publicly presented table of values:

Base  Price $35/g
Found BEFORE THE RAIN +$15/g
Under 5     +$20/g
Under 10  +$15/g
Under 20  +$10/g
Under 30   +$5/g
100% crusted  +$10/g
Oriented   +$25/g

So a  35g stone, that is not completed crusted, not oriented, found after the 
rains, I  would value that at: $35/g x 35g = $1,225

Also, a 3g 100% crusted and  oriented stone, found before the rains would be 
valued by me at $105/g x 3g =  $315

My full slices of the large stone I have been selling at  $37.50/g.  That is 
after close to 19% saw losses on the cut portion and  costs of having it cut 
on a wire saw. 

Now, when I set those prices it  was early in the game, but to be honest, I 
think it is still a good price  structure that takes quality into the equation.

This is where I differ  from many others, and where I differ from you, Jason. 
 I feel the cost of  acquiring meteorites has NO bearing on their values at 
all.  Or at least it  shouldn't.

I think Supply and Demand should have bearing on the  values.

Now, if you don't want to sell your finds, no matter how  
easy/hard/cheap/costly they were to for you to obtain, then that plays into the  supply factor.

I acquired, personally and with the help of some of my  friends 78 specimens 
so far.  I, on the other hand, am willing to sell what  I have. So that too 
adds to the supply factor.

What about the demand  side?  

You are correct that much of the demand has been satisfied  with people going 
to West and finding specimens themselves.  I have one  customer that has 
taken 6 trips from the Dallas area to hunt at West, not  finding anything, so they 
came to me and paid my retail prices for some.   

There are previous collectors who have purchased from me as well as a  
prominent Texas University collection as well as purchases from the Smithsonian  
from me at my retail prices.   There have also been local Texans that  haven't 
purchased a meteorite before this that have bought from me.  Geoff  Notkin has 
published a story about the event that has generated some sales for  me as well.

Geoff and I are going to be on a nationwide TV show of our  own in a month on 
the Science Channel, that will generate tens of thousands if  not more 
visitors to various different web sites featuring some of my West  specimens for 
sale. Considering that this show very well might rerun over 100  times in the 
U.S. not including any other showings elsewhere on the globe, the  demand side of 
the equation is, to say the least, is in flux right now.  

Future stories in nationwide periodicals will only help build  demand.

In fact, we only need a teeny tiny fraction of one percent of the  viewers of 
the TV show to come to one of our sites, and from those visitors, we  only 
need a teeny tiny fraction of 1% to want a West meteorite or a part slice  of 
one of my West specimens, and I will sell out.  I expect I will sell out  at my 
prices, and that is why I have set them there and that I am keeping them  
there.

In fact, if anyone has some extra West specimens you would like to  sell, 
contact me off list as I might want to be a buyer, especially if the  demand for 
them spikes as it could in the next month or so and I sell out of  what 
relatively little I have left.

Also, I hunted for 27 days straight,  not for only a week.  Again, not that 
it matters, because it could have  taken me 1 day or 5,000 days to find my 
bounty, it still does not change the  value of the rocks, they are worth what they 
are worth irrespective of what it  takes me to find them.  Just as your finds 
are not for sale no matter how  many or how few you found. 

Also, because of some complicated details, of  which I won't go into here, I 
don't own all 78 specimens 100%.  Some of my  profit from the sales goes to 
others and it is not all for me to keep.   Again, this doesn't matter either.  

A one ounce gold nugget is  still worth $1,000 no matter who finds it or how 
long it takes for them to find  it.

Now, the challenge comes when collector-dealers assign personal  values to 
the rocks based on what they have into them.  They are perfectly  free to 
participate and influence the supply AND demand factors at the same time  if they 
want by doing that.  

If someone, left unnamed, went to a  fall site in Georgia and found a single 
10 gram stone, would they be able to  justify to the world that $6,000 in 
legal bills on top of all their other  expenses would justify a $800/g price?

No.

Now, THEY as collectors  might value it at $800/g as that is what it cost 
them, but would anyone  else?  Probably not.  So if they valued it and priced it 
at $800/g, it  would basically be off the market, and it would stay in their 
personal  collection.

Jason, you and anyone that wants a copy of my West inventory  list, that 
includes the prices of the first 69 specimens I have sold AND not  sold, you can 
do the math on what has been made by me so far.  Understand  that most of my 
inventory comes not from my personal efforts, but also the  efforts of 12 other 
people that I share ownership with, some who have put in  over 10 man days at 
the site.

Again, that doesn't matter.  If it  took 5,000 people 100 man hours each to 
find what I have, it still would not  change the value of what I have.  That is 
for the marketplace to decide,  not my personal man hours invested to decide.

Also, the fact that it has  been 6 years since I have hunted a fresh 
strewnfield (Park Forest) do I get to  count all those hours of waiting for a new fall 
to calculate into the value of  the rocks?  Nope.  It doesn't matter.

As stated before, my goal  isn't to change your mind.  And I am sure I 
haven't.  I don't look at  this from a socialist point of view but from a capitalist 
point of view.  I  am not entitled to get paid just because I spent money and 
time looking, but  rather I am entitled to get paid on what I find AND what I 
am able to market,  based on what the marketplace is willing to pay.

I am an entrepreneur not  a government employee.

That is my story, and I am sticking to  it.

Steve Arnold
Arkansas



In a message dated 4/2/2009  7:46:09 P.M. Central Daylight Time, 
meteoritekid at gmail.com  writes:
Steve,

> Remind us all what weights you found and how much  the trip  cost you and 
your
> dad, and the cost of the time your dad  had to invest in lost  Medical 
Doctor
> wages to find what you guys  found?  OK, leave out of the  formula what your
> dad's time is  worth, that is none of our business.  Why  don't you just  
figure
> your time invested as being worth $15/hour, for the total   cost.

4.2g, 6.2g plus a 0.2g chip, 175.4g, and 2.4g.

- A total  weight about on par with what I saw other people had found
in a week or so of  hunting about a month ago, when there were more
stones being found.   True, our weights aren't typical, but I can only
ascribe that to the fact  that 1) I'm good at seeing smaller stones,
and that 2) we spent some time  farther down the strewn-field, hoping
to come across places people hadn't  looked.

Lost doctor's wages?  Peter had that time scheduled as time  off for my
spring break as of several months ago.  Nothing was cancelled  or
moved, his month had a standard number of hours.

But how much did  you lose in wages?  This is really relevant to my
point down  below...kind of a side note here.

> Now, recalculate what your cost  per gram would have been if you  didn't 
find
> your big rock, as few  hunters were as lucky as you were in finding  such a 
big
>  rock.

Other hunters generally found more meteorites in the 10-100g  range,
though the average, from what I've read, was between ~20g and  ~40g.
The average weight of the stones we found was 47g, not counting  the
chip as a separate stone, which is only slightly above average,  so
your point is kind of moot.  Yes we found one big one, but,  on
average, our finds were normal.

> Also, break down what it cost  YOU for your finds per  gram and break down
> what price per gram  your dad paid for all of HIS  grammage of rocks he 
found, if
> you  would for us?

It was both of us, that was the haul.  I used the  total cost of the
trip for the pair of us and the total 'grammage' of our  finds in my
calculation.

> By the way, how much are  you  willing to sell some of your specimens for?
> Would you sell them  for  double your cost, for a not so "clinically insane"
> price of  say  maybe $24/g?   At that price, I might be a   buyer.

We're collectors, not dealers - you know that.

But you're  asking a question which raises some interesting issues.
While the initial  story of "no one has stones they're willing to sell"
has passed, many hunters  and collectors already went and found their
own stones.  And while a  collector who didn't go might be sitting
there saying 'crap, no one's  selling,' I think it might also be
interesting to note that demand should be  seriously down for a fall
that was accessible to most american collectors who  were willing to
take the time to go and find their own stone.
Many of the  people who would have bought from dealers have merely gone
and found their  own, and the people who didn't...well, it's a new
fall, an L6, and it's  really nothing special in terms of appearance or
science.  Of course, it  looks like a new fall, which usually retail
for, $10-30ish per gram, Park  Forest raising the bar there.  Even
historic falls usually go for  $10-15/g.
In fact, I believe I can recall a nice 1/2 end cut of Leedey  you
personally sold on ebay a few months back for a little less than  $10
per gram.

At the same time, I find it odd that you, who walked  away with over
2kg of material, think it prudent to charge $65/g, give or  take.
That's $120,000.  Not bad for a few week's worth of meteorite  hunting,
especially if your costs were in the $100,000 range.  Our trip  wound
up costing us around $2,000, because we booked our flights the  night
before.  And since the flights took up the vast majority of  that,
well, it makes things interesting.  I've done some numbers.   Had we
stayed a full week extra and found the same amount of meteorites  (that
we had found in the previous *five* days), it would have cost us  about
$500-600 more, and the price per gram of our finds would have  come
down to about $7/g.
But you came away with 2kg.  If you spent  the full amount that we did
for the two of us, on yourself only, you paid  $1/g.  If you spent
$4,000, you spent $2/g.  If you somehow managed  to spend $10,000 on
your trip, well - you would only need to sell 150 grams  of material at
your price of $65/g to cover your costs.
You've asked some  pretty 'off' questions, so here are a few of my own
- how much of your stock  have you sold, and how much money have  you
made?

Regards,
Jason
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