[meteorite-list] WG: NASA Phoenix Lander Bakes Sample, Arm Digs Deeper

Thu Jun 19 10:17:14 EDT 2008

And we are worried about terrestrial contamination of martian material here
on earth?  Check this out...

http://www.comics.com/creators/rubes/archive/rubes-20080619.html

;-)

Ed

Original Message:
-----------------
From: Mark Ford mark.ford at ssl.gb.com
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 10:11:58 +0100
To: Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] WG:  NASA Phoenix Lander Bakes Sample,Arm
Digs Deeper

Hi Martin et al,.

Firstly there ARE a lot of researchers working on Martian meteorites,
secondly Martian meteorites are contaminated with terrestrial
contamination, which makes them next to useless for proper Life studies or
similar. The only information you can reliably gain from a martian
meteorite is geological (how it formed etc, and maybe some hints at past
water. I certainly don't think we can decide if there is life on Mars from
martian meteorite studies, (looking for life in a piece of rock that's been
sitting on the ground in a wet oxygen rich Earth full of life is actually
pretty dumb)

Basically there is just an awful lot you [can't] do with Earth contaminated
Martian rocks. That is why a sample return is the only way to go imho.
Phoenix is attempting to do very simple life detection but, if we really
want to look for an Alien life form we need to pull a clean direct Martian
sample apart atom by atom, that means doing it here on Earth.

However so confident am I that Mars does not contain life, I personally
would be prepared to eat a piece of returned Martian soil!

Best,
Mark Ford

-----Original Message-----
From: meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com
[mailto:meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com] On Behalf Of Martin
Altmann
Sent: 18 June 2008 19:47
To: Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] WG: NASA Phoenix Lander Bakes Sample,Arm Digs
Deeper

Hi Larry,

without any doubt! I didn't tell, that we shouldn't fly to Mars or that we
shouldn't send space probes there, there was no "instead of".
In fact I'm a great fan of planetary missions, and not least the Viking
missions had a certain contribution, that I have now my own Mars :-)

I'm only always baffled, that the space agencies aren't interested in SNCs
at all! I mean, you see, the methods and devices to analyze rocks in situ on
a different planet are limited. It is expensive to send robots there and the
risk of failure is high.
If I'm interested in exploring Mars, why should I then do the research
without the samples from Mars I have already here on Earth, where I have no
risks to take, which are thousands and thousands times cheaper, then the
sniff a rover can take of a rock on the surface of Mars, and - which is most
important -, whereon I can apply my whole arsenal of techniques and methods
in my lab?

Remember back, why NASA built up before Apollo a reference collection of
Moon-like rocks, why Shoemaker trained the astronauts in th Ries Crater to
pick up the right stuff?
See.
And there they had the problem, that NO lunar rock was known on Earth at
that time.

Now to have all those Mars missions, but to ignore the SNC meteorites,
Well Larry, to me the space agencies seem to be like, like...
let's say marine biologists, who tell yaaah let's built one fancy diving
robot after the other, we like marine organisms, fishes and stuff!
But water? Why should be water interesting for us, what has water to do with
our subcject???

Well, and if I read, that ESA spends funds in collecting Earth-rocks, which
are similar to Mars rocks, and is studying them in their labs...
Larry, what would be the outcome, if there would be a poll:
Hey German taxpayer: ESA wants to learn about Mars rocks, shall they spend
the 3$, each of you is paying to ESA each year, for sending people around
the globe, to collect earthly stones to analyse them,
or shall they rather buy for your money real Mars rocks, which would cost
the same?

Hmmmmmmmmm.......

Martin Doe 

-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com
[mailto:meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von
lebofsky at lpl.arizona.edu
Gesendet: Mittwoch, 18. Juni 2008 20:04
An: Martin Altmann
Cc: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com
Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] WG: NASA Phoenix Lander Bakes Sample, Arm Digs
Deeper

Hello Martin:

But there are several reasons for going there:

1. You actually know where the sample came from (not true for the
meteorite).

2. To get a meteorite takes a little energy, so "stuff happens" to a Mars
rock that does not happen to a pristine soil sample on Mars.

3. If you are looking for water (or water ice or carbon dioxide ice) as
part of an initial search for life on Mars, again, you need to know where
your sample has come from and that it has not been bashed by an impact,
been in space for a few million years, gone through Earth's atmosphere,
and then sat on Earth for some unknown length of time.

Ideally, you want to get samples from a number of places and bring them
back to Earth, but that gets a little more expensive. And you are up
against ICAMSR (International Committee against Mars Sample Return) (those
Mars bugs are going to get you).

For your information, the Mars rovers cost just over $800 million (build a
second for about half the cost of one). The "next generation" Mars lander,
Mars Science Laboratory, is running $1.2 billion (20% over budget) and
behind schedule. This is problem since nothing can be done to get Mars to
wait for the Lab to get launched. If it cannot be launched on time, there
is a delay of something like 18 months for the next opportunity.

In this respect, Phoenix is cheap.

Larry

On Wed, June 18, 2008 8:57 am, Martin Altmann wrote:
>

> Hmm Sterling,
>
>
> assumed that I'm not so intelligent, I have a question, which is
> bothering me:  aside from the achievements and recoveries such a mission
> like the Phoenix lander means,
> I wonder - well how shall I say - but given the $386,000,000 and not to
> mention, what for means a successful sample-return-mission would consume
> -
> I wonder why NASA is not interested in baking Martian soils and rocks from
>  many different places on Mars in terrestrial ovens for let's say $30,000
> or something around that sum, (Hey NASA has an   a n n u a l   budget of
> $17,000,000,000
> All SNCs found so far would cost, let's say
> $40,000,000
> to make all happy) and I wonder whether the American taxpayer would agree
> more to such an expense.
>
> Strange in my blear eyes is too, that ESA is sending out employees to far
>  corners of the World, to collect terrestrial analogs to Martian rocks to
>  analyse and research them, but on the other hand they have no reference
> collection of Martian meteorites to work on, although such a collection
> currently would cost them less, then the plane tickets for the guys sent
> to collect Martian look-a-likes.
>
> In my naïve point of view, I was thinking, that it could be a fundamental
>  and elemental building block of scientific exploration of Planet Mars to
>  investigate that matter, those rocks from there, we already have here on
>  Earth?
> (as told, maybe I'm to stupid.. but on the other hand, perhaps the quality
>  of the training and schooling of those guys at NASA, IAXA, ESA had a few
>  gaps, so that they simply don't know, that we already do have some
> Martian
> rocks here on Earth? At least I think it is problematical to propagate the
>  scientific mandate of these organizations to explore Planet Mars and the
>  necessity of those hefty expenses, but to neglect that simple and
> cost-efficient, but nevertheless very important domain of researching the
>  Martian meteorites - it isn't plausible to public in no way, happily
> most of the taxpayers don't know, that there exist meteorites from Mars,
> hehe).
>
> See you all in Ensiheim!
> Martin
>
>
>
>
> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
> Von: meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com
> [mailto:meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von
> Sterling
> K. Webb
> Gesendet: Mittwoch, 18. Juni 2008 08:52
> An: Pete Shugar; Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com; mexicodoug at aim.com
> Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] NASA Phoenix Lander Bakes Sample,Arm Digs
> Deeper
>
>
> Hi, Pete, List,
>
>
> This mission was named Phoenix in recognition
> of the fact that like the mythical Phoenix, it rose from the ashes of the
> dead! Once upon a time, there were two Mars missions that died: the 2001
> Mars Surveyor
> lander was cancelled in 2000, and the Mars Polar Lander was lost on Mars
in
> 1999.
>
>
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>

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