[meteorite-list] RFS Picture of the Day: Phil Morgan's Flyer

Mon Jul 7 21:28:36 EDT 2008

Hi Matthias and other meteorite friends,

Matthias wrote, with reference to Winona and Camp Verde-

'- was something special. Couldn't that point to the fact that they 
observed the meteorite falling? Any ideas about that?'

That really is a 1,000,000 dollar question for paleo-meteorite 
collectors and their modern day counterparts ;]

Unless viejo Pendejo paleo-Indians saw Canyon Diablo fall and were 
close enough to the event to realize what happened [the closeness IMO 
is feasible imagining the Gran Teton bolide]; but far enough away to 
survive, it would be hard to come up with a convincing story regarding 
the 'Camp Verde' mass to have been a recorded witnessed fall for 
Indians in the region ca. 50,000 years later if we are to believe that 
upstart M.I.T. researcher who first suggested it was paired to Canyon 
Diablo.

I guess Winona is another animal, though as to my knowledge and extent 
of Google capability, don't know of and cannot find any studies that 
have actually dated the Winona meteorite's terrestrial age.  It would 
seem to mirror the case of Glorieta Mountain which enjoys that 
interesting Indian medicine man relationship also in the first half of 
the last millenium.

These later two meteorites would seem to fall into this nasty 
terrestrial dating abyss where they are too old for thermoluminescence 
to yield palatable results and possibly, if we want to believe they are 
orally recorded witnessed fa
lls in Indian tradition, too young to be 
studied by carbon 14 dating techniques unambiguously.

So while I really am with you at heart to consider the possibility that 
these were known as witnessed falls, there are too many other 
explanations I could imagine that would seem equally plausible, when 
faced with a lack of hard evidence.  For example, I would suggest that 
strange stones, especially heavy ones that were out of place - and I 
bet some Indians were very good observational geologists given their 
need to live off the land, could have been venerated just for being 
different.  Or perhaps no veneration at all is involved...I could 
imagine a scenario in a community oriented culture that for whatever 
reason, an rock could be perceived to be special or have value - and be 
cached in hopes of the finder getting a monopoly on benefiting from 
it's desirable properties.  These cysts would seem to be excellent 
hiding places to that effect - you know - so the governing council 
didn't expropriate the object in the name of the nation, or something 
like that.

The bandages or feather blankets, Mummy wrappings, etc., don't 
necessarily imply veneration.  Anyone with an iron meteorite and poorly 
insulated house would probably want to wrap their iron in something 
absorbant for protection, which is a practical alternate supposition.  
Even most stony meteorites are well served when wrapped in an absorbant 
and/or insulatin
g material.  The Indians were probably primitive by our 
standards in their knowledge of meteorites, but most Indian cultures 
seem to have great appreciation for nature and they certainly weren't 
sstupid.  Here is a picture of Winona upon its 1928 discoveryin the 
cyst in the floor-
http://www.daviddarling.info/images/Winona_meteorite.jpg

Not discounting the witnessed fall theory in the case of Winona, just 
keeping an open mind for other possibilities besides natural bias to 
want to see these Indians as having been bitten by the meteorite 
collecting bug [and why not - this was true for other tribes that 
recognized the utility of the materials].  I can imagine an alien 
species coming to earth after our mutually assured destruction, and 
finding how many of us collectors venerate meteorites, putting them in 
special display cases and with silica gel and the like, and coming to 
the conclusion that meteorite collectors venerated meteorites.  Of 
course, though not exactly in the same train of thought they would be 
right ;]

Why Winona fell apart upon recovery after perhaps nearly 1000 years in 
Indian custody seems to be worthy of beng one of the great reputed 
events in meteoritics.  Either we're missing some important piece of 
the story [question mark], or perhaps the Indians really knew it 
required a little more TLC  than whatever nasty cleaning or stress it 
was subjected to in by the archaeologist that recovered it.

Cheers and best wishes,
Doug

-----Original Message-----
From: Matthias Bärmann <majbaermann at web.de>
To: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com; MexicoDoug <MexicoDoug at aim.com>
Sent: Mon, 7 Jul 2008 5:27 pm
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] RFS Picture of the Day: Phil Morgan's 
Flyer

Hi Doug, list members , - 

"'On the top of a mesa a few miles east of Camp Verde, George E. Dawson 
came upon a stone cyst in the corner of an ancient Indian dwelling. 
Instead of finding a child burial as he expected, he found a 61.5 kg 
metallic meteorite wrapped in a feather-cloth." 

As far as I know it was nearly the same with the Winona meteorite. I 
was 
always moved by the fact that American Indian tribes such as the 
Sinagua 
(which were related to the Anasazi I guess) buried a meteorite in a way 
they 
did with children. Perhaps they considered the falling of a meteorite 
to be 
an act of birth? Obviously they were sure that this stone - and Winona 
really doesn't look spectacular - was something special. Couldn't that 
point 
to the fact that they observed the meteorite falling? Any ideas about 
that? 

Best regards, 

Matthias Baermann 

---- Original Message ----- From: <mexicodoug at aim.com> 
To: <Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com> 
Sent: Monday, July 07, 2008 11:56 PM 
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] RFS Picture of=2
0the Day: Phil Morgan's 
Flyer 

> One more important reference, V. Buchwald, 1975, V. 2, p. 399, 
> 
> 'On the top of a mesa a few miles east of Camp Verde, George E. 
Dawson 
> came upon a stone cyst in the corner of an ancient Indian dwelling. 
> Instead of finding a child burial as he expected, he found a 61.5 kg 
> metallic meteorite wrapped in a feather-cloth. ref-Nininger and 
Nininger 
> 1950 p. 106. Considerable pottery was found associated with the 
burial by 
> which its age was determined as about 800 years. ref-Nininger 1952. 
The 
> meteorite was found about 1915, about 33 km South of Sedona and 85 km 
> Southwest of Meteor Crater, in Yavapai County. The ancient Indian 
cliff 
> dwellings, Montezuma Castle, are about 7 km North of the find. While 
the 
> find was briefly reported by A.D. Nininger ref-1940. and photographed 
by 
> Nininger and Nininger ref-1952., it was only analyzed lately by Moore 
et. 
> al. ref-1968. and Wasson ref-1968. Wasson concluded on the basis of 
> Ga-Ge-Ir contents, which were similar withing analytical error to 
Canyon 
> Diablo, that Camp Verde was a mass transported from the strewn field 
of 
> Meteor Crater." 
> 
> Cheers 
> 
> 
> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] RFS Picture of the Day: Phil Morgan's 
Flyer 
> 
> Hi Bernd and Listees, "A meteorite that was
 excavated in an ancient 
> Arizona ruin. It was found wrapped in a feather cloth and [enclosed 
in] a 
> stone cyst." 
> brackets [] are mine to question whethe 
> r it was really 'on' or 'in'. 
> refs- 
> http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~afs/may96_2.html 
> The Camp Verde, Arizona iron meteorite was found on an 800-year-old 
> Sinagua "altar," wrapped in a feather blanket and was probably 
transported 
> from Meteor Crater approximately 100 km to the northeast. 
> and 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meteorite 
> In 1915, a 135-pound iron meteorite was found in a Sinagua 
(c.1100-1200 
> AD) burial cyst near Camp Verde, Arizona, respectfully wrapped in a 
> feather cloth. referenced to Nininger's 1972 Catch [sic] a Falling 
Star'. 
> Best wishes Doug 
> -----Original Message----- > From: bernd.pauli at paulinet.de To: 
Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com 
> Sent: Mon, 7 Jul 2008 3:16 pm Subject: [meteorite-list] RFS Picture 
of the 
> Day: Phil Morgan's Flyer 
> 
> Mr and Mrs H.H. Nininger once wrote: "You will see these strange 
> meteorites 
> Anyone care to give answers to these 22 pieces of information??? 
Maybe one 
> answer per list member. Happy sleuthing! 
> Let me start with #1: "A meteorite that fell through a house roof in 
> Missouri during WWI" 
> Well, that's "Baxter" ... like list member Jim Baxter ;-) Hi Jim, how 
are 

> you doin'? 
> Baxter is an L6 chondrite of 611 grams that fell through the roof of 
a 
> house in Stone (!) County, Missouri, on Jan 18, 1616. 
> 
> Cheers, 
> Bernd 
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