[meteorite-list] Fw: Carancas crater

Thu Feb 28 18:10:41 EST 2008

I'm forwarding this since it didn't show up the first time.
Jerry Flaherty
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jerry" <grf2 at verizon.net>
To: "Ted Bunch" <tbear1 at cableone.net>; <mmorgan at mhmeteorites.com>; "Michael 
Farmer" <meteoriteguy at yahoo.com>; 
<meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com>; "Adam Hupe" 
<raremeteorites at yahoo.com>; "Adam" <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2008 4:57 PM
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Carancas crater


> Ted and List,
> I'm happy to see you weigh in on this. Maybe this will stop the quibbling.
> I sense an odor of sour grapes in this thread anyhow.
> If one [or more] of our "team" managed to get there and survey the site, 
> survive angry protestations, bring back a quantity for us to share, why 
> quibble over terminology.
> Subsequent investigations corroborate earlier assessments and now this 
> meteorite is being recognized for its historic import.
> HYPERVELOCITY is the watch word anyway. That don't happen every day[at 
> least witnessed!]
> Jerry Flaherty
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Ted Bunch" <tbear1 at cableone.net>
> To: <mmorgan at mhmeteorites.com>; "Michael Farmer" <meteoriteguy at yahoo.com>; 
> <meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com>; "Adam Hupe" 
> <raremeteorites at yahoo.com>; "Adam" <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2008 2:07 PM
> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Carancas crater
>
>
>>I am not sure why there is an argument about whether or not Carancas is an
>> impact crater. Of course it is! In scientific terminology, impact pit is 
>> not
>> acceptable. Let's review the facts:
>>
>> 1) The Carancas crater was produced by a hypervelocity impactor that
>> excavated a deep hole and formed a raised rim of target materials
>> (unconsolidated clastic debris).
>> 2) Produced ejecta rays out 350 m from the crater
>> 3) The event had sufficient shock energy to cause classic shock features 
>> in
>> target quartz.
>> 4) There is no size limitation for use of the term "crater" as long as 
>> the
>> feature fits the accepted scientific constraints, e. g., formed by
>> hypervelocity impact. LDEF (Long Duration Exposure Facility) flew in 
>> space
>> for 5.5 years and studies of the facility skin showed thousands of 
>> craters
>> as small as a few microns. Similar tiny craters have been found all over
>> space shuttle vehicles. Apollo glassy spherules and rock samples show 
>> tiny
>> impact craters as do several meteorite surfaces. In all of these cases,
>> scientific reports used the term "crater".
>>
>> Ted Bunch
>>
>> (an innocent bystander with 40 + years of professional experience in 
>> impact
>> cratering)
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 2/28/08 11:01 AM, "mmorgan at mhmeteorites.com" 
>> <mmorgan at mhmeteorites.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> All:
>>> See the site (http://unb.ca/passc/ImpactDatabase).
>>> On the first page you will find the criteria for inclusion within this
>>> database (which is the most comprehensive and well-researched list on 
>>> the
>>> planet). Sikhote-Alin is listed, Carancas is not (yet?).  Also note 
>>> Wabar and
>>> Haviland, both of which are termed "craters" and do fall within Adam's 
>>> range
>>> of 5-20 m.
>>>
>>> The term impact "pit" is not listed in the Glossary of Geology (Jackson, 
>>> 1997,
>>> 4th ed.), and is thus likely a loosely-used definition.  Impact crater 
>>> is
>>> listed in the Glossary and is defined as "a generally circular crater 
>>> formed
>>> either by impact of a projectile on a planetary surface or by an 
>>> experimental
>>> hypervelocity impact of a projectile into solid matter..."
>>>
>>> I would hedge a bet that Carancas will be considered an impact crater.
>>>
>>> Matt
>>> ----------------------
>>> Matt Morgan
>>> Mile High Meteorites
>>> http://www.mhmeteorites.com
>>> P.O. Box 151293
>>> Lakewood, CO 80215 USA
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Michael Farmer <meteoriteguy at yahoo.com>
>>>
>>> Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2008 09:40:39
>>> To:Adam Hupe <raremeteorites at yahoo.com>,Adam
>>> <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
>>> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Carancas crater
>>>
>>>
>>> I did not realize that the website you listed was the
>>> definitive and final place which determines craters vs
>>> pits. It seems that some of the top scientists in the
>>> world think that it is a crater, perhaps you should
>>> enlighten them.
>>> Carancas is a crater, and I am not sure:), but I do
>>> believe that the impact of a meteorite created it,
>>> thus, I am still confused, but would that not tend to
>>> suggest that it is meteoritic? Adam, I think
>>> regardless of whether it is a common chondrite, the
>>> simple fact that it exists forces science to
>>> re-calculate its models for impact craters by
>>> chondrites. So Carancas is extremely important. I
>>> forsee papers written about Carancas for decades.
>>> There will be no roof built, the crater is already
>>> mostly destroyed (as I predicted that it would be,
>>> thanks to those of us who went there, at least some
>>> material was preserved).
>>> Michael Farmer
>>>
>>> --- Adam Hupe <raremeteorites at yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi Mike and List Members,
>>>>
>>>> To me, Carancas produced an "impact pit" which is a
>>>> form of crater. I will concede the point that it is
>>>> also a crater by other definitions, just not
>>>> meteoritic.  The Sikhote Alin event also produced
>>>> several impact pits that were described as such
>>>> further constraining the meteoritic definition of an
>>>> impact crater.
>>>>
>>>> Here is a great reference site that clearly defines
>>>> crater sizes of 5-20 meters as "impact pits".
>>>> Carancas only produced a 13 meter mud hole squarely
>>>> defining it as a pit.
>>>>
>>>> http://www.somerikko.net/old/geo/imp/listinfo.htm
>>>>
>>>> Pretty soon, the Carancas impact pit it will be no
>>>> more than a depression in the ground with urine,
>>>> fecal
>>>> matter and trash in it. Not to forget, a $90,000.00
>>>> roof will be added on top of a rotted out and the
>>>> most
>>>> common type of ordinary chondrite in existence at
>>>> the
>>>> bottom.
>>>>
>>>> All the best,
>>>>
>>>> Adam
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
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>>
>>
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