[meteorite-list] Samples

[Don Rawlings]

Doug and listees:

I find it amazing that some dealers are only too
willing to destroy the beauty of an oriented meteorite
which is obviously a common type to get it classified
and then refuse to get a rare meteorite classified
because they think it "looks like" something someone
else has.

How is the collector, or his/her heirs, going to sell
that rare meteorite that was never classified?  It may
seem like a bargain at the time to buy a field
classified meteorite but there will come a time when
it will most likely be considered worthless in the
secondary market.

Your advise is certainly sound.

Don

--- mexicodoug <mexicodoug at aol.com> wrote:

> Hi Tim,
> 
> OK, I guess the first thing I assumed (and possibly
> Mike did, too) was since 
> you called it a fall it was like Gao-Guenie: a
> witnessed fall.
> 
> But since you are apparently discussing an
> unwitnessed fall from a hot 
> desert a.k.a. for us, dense collecting area (don't
> know where else to get 
> all those Mars rocks), the best thing to do is to
> plot the strewn field.  In 
> the contemporary world that seems so difficult since
> we can't even get 
> location information for one stone that has already
> been through maybe 
> several hands.
> 
> So I only see two options or combinations between
> them:
> 
> 1) Don't buy anything that is not documented. 
> Discourage others supporting 
> this.
> 2) Buy everything under an agreement of trust from a
> reputable seller and 
> submit the batch to a scientist and let him/her
> minimize the guesswork and 
> possibly minor tests if doubts come up.  Or in a
> positive light, to convince 
> the scientist to say the batch is the same material
> or cull out what is not 
> to arrive at the TKW.
> 
> If you want to by Mars without any formal
> classification, in the form of 
> many pebbles, there is no solution except 2),
> whether you go it alone or 
> spread the risk with partners.  Because you would
> now be representing a rock 
> that has been subjectively field "classified". 
> While some people can live 
> with this, others can't.  If you can at least get
> locational information for 
> your specimens, you don't have to give the full
> 20/20 - or anything for that 
> matter if enough to meet the combined 20/20 is in
> curation as vouchers for 
> the group after the naming of your material  - if a
> scientist agrees to 
> classify and pair it to an existing classification. 
> This is the motivation 
> of the newer guidelines.
> 
> Some people get mad about subjective classification,
> because they broke the 
> ground on the sample and "invested", while others
> are pissed that it is 
> obvious and common sense dictates the material is
> what it is (arguments 
> like, bought from the same trader, got from the same
> nomad, found together): 
> with no further support except subjective judgements
> perceived as strong and 
> well founded.
> 
> This latter may be true, but that still doesn't
> remove the reality.  Only if 
> the specimens fit together can this be foolproof. 
> Even an expert meteorite 
> hunter scientist can find or purchase a handful of
> meteorites in the field 
> from a known fall and every once in a while a
> terrestrial rock can sneak in 
> that has you fooled like a baby.  Let me say it has
> happened to me, and it 
> is a very frustrating and humbling experience.  Some
> time I'll tell the 
> story of a meteorwrong that saw me coming it was a
> remarkable fraud that 
> would surprise anyone - the best scientists, at
> their first glance, 
> included.
> 
> So, the reality is also that unless each rock is
> carefully studied, nothing 
> can avoid ocassional duds getting mixed in.  Not to
> mention incorrect 
> pairing of similr meteorites.  Luckily in the sandy
> desert this isn't as 
> great a problem as areas with varieties of rocks.
> 
> How Unsettling, How Disagreeable to the innocent
> collector and enthusiast, 
> scientist alike- but true.  This is rthe dirty
> laundry of meteorite 
> collecting.  Hopefully someone has a better
> suggestion, but I wouldn't hold 
> my breath unless I were an alchemist capable of
> ethically transmuting 
> batches of meteorites ;-)  There is no free lunch...
> and no one can make 
> promises for something that hasn't been done. (Or
> can they?)
> 
> This whole thing gets sticky, when, you buy
> meteorites from the literally 
> same batch that another person has already
> classified.  Sure: you may have 
> the same material, but then again, just because the
> original buyer may not 
> have demanded 100% error proffing during the
> classification and is selling 
> some stones under the classification he got, doesn't
> make yours any more 
> paired to the ones that were used for the typing
> work.
> 
> Best wishes, Doug
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Timothy Heitz" <midwest at meteorman.org>
> To: "mexicodoug" <mexicodoug at aol.com>;
> <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
> Sent: Thursday, December 27, 2007 12:47 PM
> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Samples
> 
> 
> > Doug,
> >
> > This is what I'm thinking.
> >
> > Lets say I bought 50 Mars stones and the biggest
> was only 8 grams, now 
> > what?
> >
> > I'm thinking what do I do now Doug?
> >
> >
> > Mike Farmer brings up a good point tens of
> thousands of Gao stones, and 
> > why
> > dont cut them or classify all of them! Same with
> Canyon Diablo.
> >
> >
> > Tim
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message ----- 
> > From: "mexicodoug" <mexicodoug at aol.com>
> > To: <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
> > Sent: Thursday, December 27, 2007 12:16 PM
> > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Samples
> >
> >
> > Tim,
> > I give up, what are you thinking - to sell them
> unclassified except for a 
> > 2
> > gram stone and then give a scientist 0.4 grams in
> exchange for classifying
> > the entire fall?  Naughty naughty
> > Doug
> >
> > ----- Original Message ----- 
> > From: "Timothy Heitz" <midwest at meteorman.org>
> > To: "Timothy Heitz" <midwest at meteorman.org>;
> "Andreas Gren"
> > <info at meteoritenhaus.de>; "'Peter A Shugar'"
> <pshugar at clearwire.net>
> > Cc: <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
> > Sent: Thursday, December 27, 2007 12:09 PM
> > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Samples
> >
> >
> > What if you had 20 stones all around 2 to10 grams
> each all from the same
> > fall?
> >
> > Tim
> >
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message ----- 
> > From: "Timothy Heitz" <midwest at meteorman.org>
> > To: "Andreas Gren" <info at meteoritenhaus.de>;
> "'Peter A Shugar'"
> > <pshugar at clearwire.net>
> > Cc: <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
> > Sent: Thursday, December 27, 2007 11:55 AM
> > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Samples
> >
> >
> >
> 
=== message truncated ===



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