[meteorite-list] Archaeology and Meteorites

[drtanuki]

Dear Ed and List,
  Ed, I am sure the list would be interested in seeing
your Table of Contents or excerpts from your book. 
This might also aid in more sales of your book.
  I have been looking for a review of your book; if
you know of any reviews please let us know.
  Thank you.  Dirk Ross...Tokyo

  I encourage Dr. Blakeslee, archaeologist from
Kansas, a member of this list to join the discussion.



--- "E.P. Grondine" <epgrondine at yahoo.com> wrote:

> Hi Sterling, 
> 
> What may be an Iroquoian tradition of the Brenham
> impact is given in "Man and Impact in the Americas"
> (available through amazon.com). I am glad that
> organic
> samples were taken for radio-carbon dating in Steve
> Arnold's hunt. 
> 
> I am sure that the physics of that impact have been
> analyzed, but I don't know if a concise description
> of
> the appearance of that small impact has ever been
> written up.  My guess is that one will probably be
> part of the television special.
> 
> As I mentioned earlier, the "Hopewell" - Cherokee,
> Shawnee - value meteorites. I mentioned Mooney's
> reports of the Cherokee meteorite trade earlier, and
> I
> note here that the Shawnee have a rather elaborate
> vocabulary for celestial phenomenon. When you
> consider
> the astronomical function of "Hopewell" ring
> structures, this should come as no surprise.
> 
> Note that some of the meteorites were found beaten
> into sheets, and near mica - these were mirrored
> surfaces, and as I mentioned earlier, polished iron
> slices, particularly from North American meteorites,
> will find good trade value from artisans at powwow.
> Fire starting irons are valued as well today, and
> this
> is pretty generally held.
> 
> good hunting,
> Ed
> Man and Impact in the Americas
> 
> 
> --- "Sterling K. Webb"
> <sterling_k_webb at sbcglobal.net>
> wrote:
> 
> > 
> >  Hi, Doug,
> > 
> >    Hijacking your nice thread again...
> > 
> >    The tektites in Tikal didn't "find their way"
> > there
> > by any other means than falling out of the sky.
> They
> > have been found in the temples, anciently
> collected,
> > and one much more degraded one has been found
> > in the forests surrounding.
> > 
> >    Alan Hildebrandt dated them and they fall right
> > into the upper end of the dating spread for
> > Australite/
> > Indochinite tektites, which, surprise! they look
> > just
> > exactly like. Grab your globe and give it a twirl.
> > Tikal's "antipodal point" is on the western edge
> of
> > the Australo-Asian strewn field. Likewise, an
> > Ivorite
> > was recovered from off shore of the Australian
> > coast.
> > equally antipodal to Ivory Coast, unless you think
> > "the currents" carried it there -:) laughing...
> > 
> >      Casa Grande was found in 1867: "A mass of
> > 3407lb
> > was found in an ancient tomb, E.G. Tarayre (1867).
> > L. Fletcher (1890) implies that this mass was
> > presented
> > to the Smithsonian Institution in 1876. First
> > Description,
> > W. Tassin (1902). Analysis, 7.74 %Ni, G.P. Merrill
> > (1913).
> > Historical note, O.E. Monnig (1939)..."
> > 
> >     Somebody asked for referrences on meteorite
> > collecting
> > by early American cultures (Maybe Ed). Here's one
> > about
> > Hopewell meteorite collecting, except it goes on
> to
> > discuss
> > dozens of other cultures, locales, and meteorites
> > including Casa
> > Grandes. It's a nice piece of work by Olaf Prufer:
> >
>
https://kb.osu.edu/dspace/bitstream/1811/4817/1/V61N06_341.pdf
> > 
> >     No surprize, H. H. Nininger wrote "METEORITE
> > COLLECTING
> > AMONG ANCIENT AMERICANS" in 1938. That paper can
> be
> > found at:
> >
>
http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0002-7316(193807)4%3A1%3C39%3AMCAAA%3E2.0.CO%3B2-W
> > but it's where no mere mortal without official
> > access can view it...
> > You can read the first page, though, which is
> enough
> > to see that
> > it covers much the same ground as the paper
> > previously cited
> > (up above this one) which you can get to see (and
> > download).
> > 
> >     Handing the thread back to you, Doug.
> > 
> > 
> >  Sterling K. Webb
> > >
> >
>
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > ----- Original Message ----- 
> > > From: "MexicoDoug" <MexicoDoug at aim.com>
> > > To: "Martin Altmann"
> <altmann at meteorite-martin.de>
> > > Cc: <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
> > > Sent: Monday, November 27, 2006 4:03 PM
> > > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite novels
> > -gifts II
> > >
> > >
> > > Whooooe, Martin, thanks for the kind comments 
> --
> > I re-read my post,  your
> > > words and by all means did take one comment very
> > much to heart.  I'm 
> > > guilty
> > > as charged for not giving further consideration
> to
> > other meteoritically
> > > interested cultures between those Germanic and
> > ancients.  I think Ed would
> > > be the better expert in that department on this
> > side of the Atlantic. You
> > > speak of the Aztecs as a culture with as rich of
> a
> > treatment of things
> > > meteoritic as the medieval traditions in your
> > lands... I'd like to know 
> > > more
> > > about that.
> > >
> > > I'd be interested in knowing what meteorites the
> > Aztecs venerated, feared,
> > > deified, or imbued with magical qualities.  Are
> > you perhaps thinking of
> > > Xocotl the Aztec god of fire and Dark and occult
> > side of planet Venus?  I
> > > think he was more likey born spewn from a
> volcano,
> > of which there are many
> > > in his territory, or as legend goes, a ball of
> > feathers fell in a temple 
> > > his
> > > virgin mother then bore him and others.  So
> > Xocotl's mother may have been
> > > fertilized by a meteorite in a stretch of faith
> > (the feathers could be
> > > thought of as cometary)...but these are much
> > further musings than others
> > > I've made:-)
> > >
> > > Maybe your reference is meant to consider the
> over
> > 1.5 ton Casas Grandes
> > > Iron meteorite mummy found in the ruins of the
> > temple of a mysterious
> > > peoples of Mexico and carted out to
> Philadelphia,
> > USA.  I say mysterious
> > > peoples as I don't think you can call them
> Aztecs
> > with certainty, and they
> > > may actually be somewhat Navajo.  Unfortunately,
> > the information on that
> > > culture is so scant, circumstantial and too
> > inconclusive.  But the Casas
> > > Grandes meteorite had fallen tens of thousands
> of
> > years before that region
> > > was populated.  Thus, at best, one can imagine
> > that it was appreciated for
> > > its heft and unique nearly indestructable
> > properties.
> > >
> > > The reason I'm not sure we can call that culture
> > Aztec, is because the
> > > business end of the great Aztec empire was
> > generally disconnected and
> > > geographically no where near the southern limits
> > of that mysterious 
> > > culture,
> > > to make tribute payments to the empire.  In
> fact,
> > it seems to just
> > > mysteroiusly vanished without battle before the
> > Spanish first appeared
> > > anywhere on the scene.  There is contentious
> > speculaion that that 
> > > particular
> > > culture was from northern New Mexico near
> > Colorado, and Ed may be able to
> > > add more on that subject.  It seems to me they
> > were their own independent
> > > culture eventually centered in Paquimé,
> Chihuahua,
> > very close to El Paso
> > > TX - Juarez MX, where the meteorite was dug up. 
> > Hopefully we can learn
> > > more, but anything new will be an uphill battle
> > the way the evidence is so
> > > limited and thus dominated more by speculations.
> 
> > I am not aware of too 
> > > much
> > > shared divinity evidence though a minimal amount
> > is no doubt common.
> > >
> > > The the next meteoritic thing in my neck of the
> > desert, sitting above the
> > > northern tip of Mesoamerica, I can mention are
> the
> > few tektites found way
> > > down in the ancient Mayan city of Tikal - but
> that
> > would be in Guatemala
> > > already.  These unique chards which are
> mysteries
> > themselves as no more
> > > paired have been found after extensive
> scientific
> > field work and study, 
> > > and
> > > they are generally Chicxulub era mintage.
> > >
> > > What surprises me, is not the great deal of
> > evidence of meteorites in the
> > > Aztec and Mayan cities, but rather the lack of
> it.
> >  I really would have
> > > thought more references, stonework or carvings
> > could have been passed 
> > > along.
> > > We're talking about a culture with debatably
> > sophistiated astronomers and
> > > celestial timekeepers rivaling the Europeans and
> > Arabs during periods in
> > > their history.  I'd be very interested to be
> > reminded if I have missed any
> > > mythology here even with the destruction here
> that
> > has ensued there has 
> > > been
> > > a great deal of stoneworks preserved and I am
> > unaware of meteorites and
> > > comets showing on any of them despite the
> > observatories and 
> > > sophistication.
> > >
> > > Martin, I appreciate your kind humility
> regarding
> > the historical record of
> > > Germanic accomplishments.  I wasn't referring to
> > your Grimms' tale, but
> > > rather the Grimms' "Star Money" which I posted
> the
> > other day.  On the 
> > > other
> > > hand the accomplishments of Chinese, Arab, and
> > Japanese, among others
> > > certainly survived in some shapes and forms and
> > deserve a more important
> > > mention than I foolishly brushed by at 4:00 AM. 
> I
> > think though you've
> > > assumed a bit too much about my thoughts of
> rites
> > and legend and today's
> > > Germany as a nation.  My use of German- and
> > Germanic was intended to cover
> > > everyone from King Arthur to the Vikings, I hope
> > Gauls (not sure are they
> > > Germanic?), as well as the Barvarians...Am I
> wrong
> > with this?  The 
> > > qualities
> > > of these peoples and their attraction to these
> > metals for weapons, 
> > > Excalibur
> > > itself I mentioned, the sword legend would have
> > pulled from a 
> > > stone...etc...
> > > Perhaps the Romans with the push for
> > de-paganization most effectively
> > > stiffled throughout the empire idolization of
> > metals and weapons and that 
> > > is
> > > the simple reason - I don't know.
> > >
> > > But, since you mention the enlightenment to
> > Chladni's time for things
> > > meteoritic, I'd say be careful not to be a fish
> in
> > a fishbowl who doesn't
> > > appreciate the water that surrounds him as we
> > thirsty and envious cats are
> > > looking in with our saucery eyes for a bite to
> > eat.  Take explorers as
> > > recent as Alexander von Humboldt, who I think
> > recovered meteoritical iron
> > > from Chupaderos MX most probably a few short
> > months _before_ the French 
> > > fall
> > > in L'Aigle reached him.  Then, he went to visit
> > his good friend Thomas
> > > Jefferson in Washington for several weeks they
> > managed to socialize many,
> > > many stimulating hours their mutual
> satisfaction,
> > and I fully suspect that
> > > Jefferson would have been given the opportunity
> to
> > see this, after their
> > > extensive scientific and social discussions. 
> > Interestingly, L'Aigle must
> > > have been old news to Baron von Humboldt once he
> > traveled from Mexico to
> > > Washington DC, and Humboldt was certainly up on
> > the geological sciences 
> > > from
> > > France (as a matter of fact he and Jefferson
> even
> > corresponded in French 
> > > on
> > > ocassion). This puts a different perspective
> > entirely on Jefferson's 
> > > famous
> > > satirical Yankee comments, especially knowing
> the
> > master politician and
> > > skilled manipulator of the press in the new
> > anarchy he delighted in.  The
> > > Secretary of State had to offer the Baron a visa
> > and permit to carry many
> > > scientific samplings from Latin America,  Any
> more
> > info you might have 
> > > here?
> > > Would this have been discussed?  Was the iron
> > meteorite actually collected
> > > in 1803 by Humboldt, part of the bill of lading,
> > or did it somehow get 
> > > into
> > > his possession at a later date?? These are
> burning
> > questions.  Humboldt
> > > helped Jefferson enough to plan together the
> > expedition for the Lousiana
> > > Purchase, and how to collect, I wonder if they
> > corresponded in 1807 about
> > > the Weston fall?
> > >
> > > I even live near a nice street named after
> > Humboldt in Mexico.   Less than
> > > five short years in Latin America...the records
> of
> > his 12 months of 
> > > travels
> > > throughout Mexico are no doubt archived with
> great
> > precision somewhere in
> > > Berlin and in scattered reprints in Mexico. 
> Which
> > street in Munich is 
> > > named
> > > after a Mexican explorer :-) ?
> > >
> > > Best wishes, Doug
> > 
> > 
> > ______________________________________________
> > Meteorite-list mailing list
> > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com
> >
>
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> > 
> 
> 
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