[meteorite-list] Meteorite novels -gifts II

[Sterling K. Webb]

 Hi, Doug,

   Hijacking your nice thread again...

   The tektites in Tikal didn't "find their way" there
by any other means than falling out of the sky. They
have been found in the temples, anciently collected,
and one much more degraded one has been found
in the forests surrounding.

   Alan Hildebrandt dated them and they fall right
into the upper end of the dating spread for Australite/
Indochinite tektites, which, surprise! they look just
exactly like. Grab your globe and give it a twirl.
Tikal's "antipodal point" is on the western edge of
the Australo-Asian strewn field. Likewise, an Ivorite
was recovered from off shore of the Australian coast.
equally antipodal to Ivory Coast, unless you think
"the currents" carried it there -:) laughing...

     Casa Grande was found in 1867: "A mass of 3407lb
was found in an ancient tomb, E.G. Tarayre (1867).
L. Fletcher (1890) implies that this mass was presented
to the Smithsonian Institution in 1876. First Description,
W. Tassin (1902). Analysis, 7.74 %Ni, G.P. Merrill (1913).
Historical note, O.E. Monnig (1939)..."

    Somebody asked for referrences on meteorite collecting
by early American cultures (Maybe Ed). Here's one about
Hopewell meteorite collecting, except it goes on to discuss
dozens of other cultures, locales, and meteorites including Casa
Grandes. It's a nice piece of work by Olaf Prufer:
https://kb.osu.edu/dspace/bitstream/1811/4817/1/V61N06_341.pdf

    No surprize, H. H. Nininger wrote "METEORITE COLLECTING
AMONG ANCIENT AMERICANS" in 1938. That paper can be
found at:
http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0002-7316(193807)4%3A1%3C39%3AMCAAA%3E2.0.CO%3B2-W
but it's where no mere mortal without official access can view it...
You can read the first page, though, which is enough to see that
it covers much the same ground as the paper previously cited
(up above this one) which you can get to see (and download).

    Handing the thread back to you, Doug.


 Sterling K. Webb
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "MexicoDoug" <MexicoDoug at aim.com>
> To: "Martin Altmann" <altmann at meteorite-martin.de>
> Cc: <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
> Sent: Monday, November 27, 2006 4:03 PM
> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite novels -gifts II
>
>
> Whooooe, Martin, thanks for the kind comments  -- I re-read my post,  your
> words and by all means did take one comment very much to heart.  I'm 
> guilty
> as charged for not giving further consideration to other meteoritically
> interested cultures between those Germanic and ancients.  I think Ed would
> be the better expert in that department on this side of the Atlantic. You
> speak of the Aztecs as a culture with as rich of a treatment of things
> meteoritic as the medieval traditions in your lands... I'd like to know 
> more
> about that.
>
> I'd be interested in knowing what meteorites the Aztecs venerated, feared,
> deified, or imbued with magical qualities.  Are you perhaps thinking of
> Xocotl the Aztec god of fire and Dark and occult side of planet Venus?  I
> think he was more likey born spewn from a volcano, of which there are many
> in his territory, or as legend goes, a ball of feathers fell in a temple 
> his
> virgin mother then bore him and others.  So Xocotl's mother may have been
> fertilized by a meteorite in a stretch of faith (the feathers could be
> thought of as cometary)...but these are much further musings than others
> I've made:-)
>
> Maybe your reference is meant to consider the over 1.5 ton Casas Grandes
> Iron meteorite mummy found in the ruins of the temple of a mysterious
> peoples of Mexico and carted out to Philadelphia, USA.  I say mysterious
> peoples as I don't think you can call them Aztecs with certainty, and they
> may actually be somewhat Navajo.  Unfortunately, the information on that
> culture is so scant, circumstantial and too inconclusive.  But the Casas
> Grandes meteorite had fallen tens of thousands of years before that region
> was populated.  Thus, at best, one can imagine that it was appreciated for
> its heft and unique nearly indestructable properties.
>
> The reason I'm not sure we can call that culture Aztec, is because the
> business end of the great Aztec empire was generally disconnected and
> geographically no where near the southern limits of that mysterious 
> culture,
> to make tribute payments to the empire.  In fact, it seems to just
> mysteroiusly vanished without battle before the Spanish first appeared
> anywhere on the scene.  There is contentious speculaion that that 
> particular
> culture was from northern New Mexico near Colorado, and Ed may be able to
> add more on that subject.  It seems to me they were their own independent
> culture eventually centered in Paquimé, Chihuahua, very close to El Paso
> TX - Juarez MX, where the meteorite was dug up.  Hopefully we can learn
> more, but anything new will be an uphill battle the way the evidence is so
> limited and thus dominated more by speculations.  I am not aware of too 
> much
> shared divinity evidence though a minimal amount is no doubt common.
>
> The the next meteoritic thing in my neck of the desert, sitting above the
> northern tip of Mesoamerica, I can mention are the few tektites found way
> down in the ancient Mayan city of Tikal - but that would be in Guatemala
> already.  These unique chards which are mysteries themselves as no more
> paired have been found after extensive scientific field work and study, 
> and
> they are generally Chicxulub era mintage.
>
> What surprises me, is not the great deal of evidence of meteorites in the
> Aztec and Mayan cities, but rather the lack of it.  I really would have
> thought more references, stonework or carvings could have been passed 
> along.
> We're talking about a culture with debatably sophistiated astronomers and
> celestial timekeepers rivaling the Europeans and Arabs during periods in
> their history.  I'd be very interested to be reminded if I have missed any
> mythology here even with the destruction here that has ensued there has 
> been
> a great deal of stoneworks preserved and I am unaware of meteorites and
> comets showing on any of them despite the observatories and 
> sophistication.
>
> Martin, I appreciate your kind humility regarding the historical record of
> Germanic accomplishments.  I wasn't referring to your Grimms' tale, but
> rather the Grimms' "Star Money" which I posted the other day.  On the 
> other
> hand the accomplishments of Chinese, Arab, and Japanese, among others
> certainly survived in some shapes and forms and deserve a more important
> mention than I foolishly brushed by at 4:00 AM.  I think though you've
> assumed a bit too much about my thoughts of rites and legend and today's
> Germany as a nation.  My use of German- and Germanic was intended to cover
> everyone from King Arthur to the Vikings, I hope Gauls (not sure are they
> Germanic?), as well as the Barvarians...Am I wrong with this?  The 
> qualities
> of these peoples and their attraction to these metals for weapons, 
> Excalibur
> itself I mentioned, the sword legend would have pulled from a 
> stone...etc...
> Perhaps the Romans with the push for de-paganization most effectively
> stiffled throughout the empire idolization of metals and weapons and that 
> is
> the simple reason - I don't know.
>
> But, since you mention the enlightenment to Chladni's time for things
> meteoritic, I'd say be careful not to be a fish in a fishbowl who doesn't
> appreciate the water that surrounds him as we thirsty and envious cats are
> looking in with our saucery eyes for a bite to eat.  Take explorers as
> recent as Alexander von Humboldt, who I think recovered meteoritical iron
> from Chupaderos MX most probably a few short months _before_ the French 
> fall
> in L'Aigle reached him.  Then, he went to visit his good friend Thomas
> Jefferson in Washington for several weeks they managed to socialize many,
> many stimulating hours their mutual satisfaction, and I fully suspect that
> Jefferson would have been given the opportunity to see this, after their
> extensive scientific and social discussions.  Interestingly, L'Aigle must
> have been old news to Baron von Humboldt once he traveled from Mexico to
> Washington DC, and Humboldt was certainly up on the geological sciences 
> from
> France (as a matter of fact he and Jefferson even corresponded in French 
> on
> ocassion). This puts a different perspective entirely on Jefferson's 
> famous
> satirical Yankee comments, especially knowing the master politician and
> skilled manipulator of the press in the new anarchy he delighted in.  The
> Secretary of State had to offer the Baron a visa and permit to carry many
> scientific samplings from Latin America,  Any more info you might have 
> here?
> Would this have been discussed?  Was the iron meteorite actually collected
> in 1803 by Humboldt, part of the bill of lading, or did it somehow get 
> into
> his possession at a later date?? These are burning questions.  Humboldt
> helped Jefferson enough to plan together the expedition for the Lousiana
> Purchase, and how to collect, I wonder if they corresponded in 1807 about
> the Weston fall?
>
> I even live near a nice street named after Humboldt in Mexico.   Less than
> five short years in Latin America...the records of his 12 months of 
> travels
> throughout Mexico are no doubt archived with great precision somewhere in
> Berlin and in scattered reprints in Mexico.  Which street in Munich is 
> named
> after a Mexican explorer :-) ?
>
> Best wishes, Doug