[meteorite-list] Handling rust problems after buying Irons

Mon Nov 20 11:35:12 EST 2006

Hello list, Martin , -

at first: thanks so much to all of you offering your experience, your ideas 
and even your real support. That's all very much appreciated!

Well, we all agree that  1. as human beings we are (necessarily) friends of 
oxygen;  2.

as meteorite-aficionados we are bitter enemies of oxygen.

Because oxygen makes our breathtaking iron- (and sometimes even stone-) 
pieces rust.

So the main thing I wanted to underline with my initial posting is: problems 
always can happen. But the seller of these always unique pieces should feel 
responsible for the material he sold (as the collector should do so in 
caring about them, keeping and treating them in the right way).

Well, I'm aware that the definition of "responsibility" is a wide field 
(following famous German novelist Fontane). But a minimum would be that a 
seller should be open to staying in contact with his clients and to discuss 
eventual problems with them, trying to support them - what at least wouldn't 
be so bad for his business.

Martin, you wrote: "Naked (the pieces, not me)". Well, otherwise a deep 
black fresh crusted piece would have changed to red immediately - "sweating 
blood" seems to be the new metaphor for that phenomenon ;-) Anyway, I can 
assure you that I don't count me to the insatiable type of collector you 
mention in your posting.

Thanks again, and best regards,

Matthias

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Martin Altmann" <altmann at meteorite-martin.de>
To: "'MexicoDoug'" <MexicoDoug at aim.com>; 
<meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
Sent: Monday, November 20, 2006 4:29 PM
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Handling rust problems after buying Irons

Hi Doug,

you have to be careful in blaming someone being fraudulent.
In this case you have to turn the angle.
It would have been a fraud, if the seller would have stated, that his piece
would be stable.

There you can btw. judge, who is a serious seller and who is not.
Did you ever saw one of the "big names" giving a warranty, that their irons
won't rust? I didn't. Because nobody can, also not the best preparators on
Earth like Pilski, Cilz et al won't, nor Rusty Bill Mason.
You simply can't smell, how much chlorine the iron absorbed before.
One can apply all types of physical and chemical procedures to stabilize and
to seal a piece - it won't be though a warranty, that one day it will start
again to rust.
It is a lottery - there exist Campos, Brenhams, Nantans which are stable for
decades, but most aren't. There exist Gibeons and even Imilacs, which rust
like hell. That's it.

Of course a proper preparation should be preconditioned, and here you might
eliminate a source of instability,
but in general you never will be sure, nor is it in the hands of a seller,
whether a piece will rust or not.

Take Morasko. A lot of specimens are hefty rusters, independently from size.
Others are not (once I got back a slice from a collector, who had quit, in 5
years he hadn't applied oil, nor was he using dessicants and it was as
bright and free of rust like 5 years ago).

The only thing a seller can do, as I'm doing it often with non-mass irons,
is to keep the pieces for a while in quarantine. Naked (the pieces, not me)
in humid environment with always changing temperatures.
If then a slice starts to rust soon, then you know that this very specimen
is problematic. If not, then you can hope that it will be stable, a warranty
you don't have at all.
And furthermore, what shall a seller do? Let's take Campo - on ebay you see
the stuff being sold by the tons always around 50 bucks per kilogram.
If a seller takes now special care for his chunks and slices, neutralizing
them, treating the chlorine, bathing it for many weeks in diverse solutions,
Yah Doug, do you really think, anyone out there would pay him although one
cent more per gram for that time consuming work, than the usual standard
price?  (with a few exceptions). No.

Fraudulent... if someone states, that his method leads to absolute stability
(as it happens) before and then it will rust, then you should ask a refund.
If someone tells the fairy tale of New Campo, and your piece will
disintegrate within a few months, send it back.
This would be the fault of the seller, because he promised properties of the
specimen, which it didn't had.

Some dealers are obliging and will restore a specimen, if it rusted
immediately, for free, but most aren't and can't, also because they don't
know, what the buyer is doing with them. If they think they have to use a
Campo pearls for their rosaries or please their fishes in their
salt-water-aquaria...

Sometimes I'm surprised, what collectors on the list do expect from
meteorite dealers.
They should deliver 5$ pieces at free shipment, but with fancy specimen
cards.
They should reveal the sources, where they got their specimens from, hence
their basis of the biz.
They should know each and every pairing of their desert stones, which even
the scientists do not know.
They should give a lifetime guaranty for the stability of their irons, where
each other product made of iron, let's take a toaster, has a warranty of 2
years,
and that all please at their own buying prices and the work they are doing
for free.

Man, we have to be glad and happy, that there are at all still persons
around, who are so enthusiastic, that they offer meteorites at all and feel
compelled to have so high standards, as you hardly will find in any other
branch!

Meow!
Martin

PS: And those collectors, who don't want to have any troubles with
meteorites, pleeeeeease don't collect irons, but stones!

-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com
[mailto:meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von
MexicoDoug
Gesendet: Montag, 20. November 2006 03:45
An: Matthias Bärmann; meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com
Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] Handling rust problems after buying Irons

Hi Matthias,

I am very saddened to hear of the problems you experienced with your Morasko

specimens you bought at auction from that Seller.  The comment about your
Nantan never rusting is odd with Morasko rusting, making this a curiousity -

though I'm sure it is frustrating to no end to see your beautiful meteorites

rusting away.

I just have two comments,

First, did your Morasko have fissures along the crystal bountries as is
common due to high impact shocking in that iron?  This probably could play
havoc if not properly cared for if dunked in tap water especially and not
dried...and not all Morasko are equally fissured.  If it did exhibit this
natural condition, was this illustrated in the photos for you, or is there
evidence it was purposefully occulted?  Then you'd have a case of fraud.

Second, could you kindly share the "obscure treatment" the Seller suggested
with us?  That way when you make your complaint public we can all judge for
ourselves better what is happening and it would be much more effective IMO.
Plus, I'm sure listmembers would love to know of a potentially different
treatment out there being used on that locality - I would!

I wish you good luck with the Seller, any time a meteorite rusts it's not
only a loss for the owner, but for humanity as well.  It would be helpful if

preparation was not used as a competitive advantage of dealers.  This is one

of the aspects of commercialization of meteorites I really find revolting.
In a perfect world where meteorites come first, Sellers should be required
to say exactly how the meteorite is prepared or what it is exposed to.  And
Sellers should be more responsible to conserve and provide this information
even before asking more mundane things like TKW 's since TLC beats that, and

w/crust, since w/rust beats out that for importance to know...This is more
than a labeling issue - it is a processing issue which directly affects the
scientific and commercial value of the piece.  Off the soap box...

Best wishes,
Doug

PS, it was sufficient to post the Seller's eBay ID, without his name.  EBay
policy is that posting in public name and ID after participating in auctions

is not legal and more to the point with your problem, you probably loose
some leverage with eBay taking punative action when there is a case to be
made that the Seller has already answered you, no matter how lame or nice
the Seller's sugestion.

ref: http://pages.ebay.com/help/policies/identity-contact.html.  I don't
make a big deal out of this since you can't reach over "with pleasure" and
choke a seller, depending on how much hard earned $ is at stake, and maybe
all you are really looking is to stike back at him after a negative
transaction where you feel fooled. No further comment!

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